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I_am_the_best
After the capture of Gillad Shalit and two other Israeli officers, Israel and Lebanon have been exchanging air raids destroying the 'peace' (comparitive to previous wars) that had been kept during the past decade. I would post a link to the BBC news site explaining the situation (which I'm sure you already know abbout) however the BBC is very biased towards the Palestinians. This morning, on radio 4, a reporter said (talking about the Israeli raids in Lebanon resulting in 50 civilian deaths) 'had this raid been in the day time, the death toll could have been higher'. This disgusts me because the reason that Israel is bombing during the night time is because they don't want to kill people, they just want the freedom of the prisoners. Palestinians want Israel anihilated.

Of course, I am very worried for Israel and fear a repeat of 1967 on a much larger scale however my fear is constricted because Israel has, no doubt, the best army in the world. Unforunately, the west is most likely to get involved. America supports Israel, Britain supports Israel's surrounding countries. It is unlikely that Britain and America will fall out but if America gets involved, then the war could escalate. If America is involved, then Britain most likely will follow, whether we will fight for Israel or the Arabs, I can't decide. And after this, who knows what the war could grow into.

Your views?
pgrmdave
America will not get deeply involved because of Iraq. We have too much stake in the region to be too openly supportive of Israel, whether or not we think they are in the right.

Edit: And it is amusing that your media are very biased toward the Palestinians, while our media tend to be biased toward the Israelis.
Calantyr
QUOTE (I_am_the_best @ Jul 14 2006, 05:28 PM) *
After the capture of Gillad Shalit and two other Israeli officers, Israel and Lebanon have been exchanging air raids destroying the 'peace' (comparitive to previous wars) that had been kept during the past decade. I would post a link to the BBC news site explaining the situation (which I'm sure you already know abbout) however the BBC is very biased towards the Palestinians. This morning, on radio 4, a reporter said (talking about the Israeli raids in Lebanon resulting in 50 civilian deaths) 'had this raid been in the day time, the death toll could have been higher'. This disgusts me because the reason that Israel is bombing during the night time is because they don't want to kill people, they just want the freedom of the prisoners. Palestinians want Israel anihilated.

Of course, I am very worried for Israel and fear a repeat of 1967 on a much larger scale however my fear is constricted because Israel has, no doubt, the best army in the world. Unforunately, the west is most likely to get involved. America supports Israel, Britain supports Israel's surrounding countries. It is unlikely that Britain and America will fall out but if America gets involved, then the war could escalate. If America is involved, then Britain most likely will follow, whether we will fight for Israel or the Arabs, I can't decide. And after this, who knows what the war could grow into.

Your views?


You know I've been suprised that I can find so few threads on the current crisis. perhaps because the Israel issue has been done to death? No matter.

First of all your accusation that the Israeli's have been misrepresented by the BBC (and others). The BBC DOES have liberal bent, but it is shown with an understanding there are naturally differing views and there is always a counterpoint to their allotted reports. The invention of RADAR hasn't completely removed the benefits of bombing at night. It offers lower visibility and less chance for intervention if enemy planes are scrambled. I have no doubt that the Israelies want to minimise casualties but there is ALWAYS more to war than just minding the sensibilities of the airchair generals.

And I take umbrage to the accusation that all Palastinians want the destruction of the Israeli state. Many do not. Of course Israel's actions in the past (and the Palestinions actions that may or may not have caused them) have not exactly fostered the most fluffy sense of well-being in the area, but the majority of Palestinians are content to work and live in the same world as the Israeli state. Perhaps because of the repurcussions? Who knows. Many have jobs in Israel, and far more realise that continued carnage will only harm them in the long run. Of course everyone always picks up on the extremes of any argument... but it is the extremists that are the reason for todays conflicts, not the layman in the street.

And the UK will undoubtable follow the US in this... escalation. I'm not saying this out of some duty of service to the US, it simply makes sense. Moral sense at any rate, though geo-politics is probably the least moral subject in human history...

Hezbollah are a part of the Lebanon state. They have been since the end of the civil war in Lebbanon. Part of the reason why the Lebbanon state secured *some* security was through deals with Hezbollah. It is not a joyous union, most people who support the democratic principles of Lebanon despise the union... but it is necessary to avoid a bloody civil war in the country.

As a result Israel targets many parts of Lebanon in retaliation for the kidnappings and attacks... and you know what? I think they are completely justified. Lebanon allows these extremists to maintain some sense of internal order. That is maintained, but this is the result to the wider international community. Short term goals, long term problems... but you can not blame Lebanon as a whole for the recent problems. To do so would completely discredit the widespread and dangerous effort to bring Lebanon out of crisis and into the modern world. Lebanon is not the villain, strong elements within are. Do not cast the entire country aside because it has such deep problems....

So yes, I think Israel has all the right in pursuing their captured soldiers. They are a nation of warranted conscription... if we disregard these soldiers plight, remember that any adult in Israel is subject to conscription through *need* (if I recall correctly). It has a duty to protect it's people... and I do not think anyone can say that it outright provoked this current crisis.

Maybe they have gone above and beyond what is required? I do not know. I am not a general and I do not know if targetting the entire infrastructure of a country is necessary to dislodge an armed 'terroristic' group sanctioned by said country... All I know is that Israel has to do something, and the Lebonease government is not helping. At least not openly.

Of course, as always, the loosers are the ones caught in the middle of such conflicts.
That_Guy
It's really more than meets the eye, at first glance. It could be that Israel is just using the captured soldiers as an excuse to invade Lebanon and Gaza.

But then again, it's also possible that the Palestinian underground counted on such an attack happening. They know well that they can't win by force, so they make themselves look as desparate as possible to gain the support of other countries.
I_am_the_best
QUOTE (Calantyr @ Jul 14 2006, 09:18 PM) *
but the majority of Palestinians are content to work and live in the same world as the Israeli state.


Yes but unfortunately the leaders are not happy. In Egypt for example, how did Hamas get elected?! They are a group designed specially for the destruction of Israel. IT's been said time and time again that the political leaders of the Middle East are mostly for Israel's death. And we're forgetting Iran, sitting quietly in the corner, I just fear what will happen when they strike.

QUOTE
remember that any adult in Israel is subject to conscription through *need* (if I recall correctly).


Yes, many of my cousins and friends have gone to the army or are currently in it. It is a very hard time for family and friends. There is little partiotism involved, just the knowledge that they have to and that is the way of life.

QUOTE
t's really more than meets the eye, at first glance. It could be that Israel is just using the captured soldiers as an excuse to invade Lebanon and Gaza.


I disagree. Israel has no reason to attack Lebanon and Gaza. Besides, Israel rightfully won over Gaza in 1967's Milkhemet Sheshet HaYamim (Erm, war with six days). Israel simply wants to defend its state and live happily. It's just scary how far Lebanon has managed to reach with their shells, lets pray they can't reach any further!
Witless
QUOTE (Calantyr @ Jul 14 2006, 09:18 PM) *
You know I've been suprised that I can find so few threads on the current crisis. perhaps because the Israel issue has been done to death?


Yeah that'd be the main reason I haven't posted much in here. I mean.. if you look for it, there's big issues in a lot of places (insert the various issues of africa here).

Yeah Israel as a more mighty military.. but that's not a new danger to be quite honest. The current crisis, is more like chapter 102, in a chain of crisis..ess.. (is that a word?). I don't really have more to add to this topic that I haven't said in previous middle east flavoured topics. So... </spam>
That_Guy
QUOTE (I_am_the_best @ Jul 14 2006, 06:20 PM) *
I disagree. Israel has no reason to attack Lebanon and Gaza. Besides, Israel rightfully won over Gaza in 1967's Milkhemet Sheshet HaYamim (Erm, war with six days). Israel simply wants to defend its state and live happily. It's just scary how far Lebanon has managed to reach with their shells, lets pray they can't reach any further!



As I remember, Israel was originally formed on previously Arab-owned land- and the only reason they succeeded is because Europe wanted to wash their hands of pre-Holocaust mistakes. The Palestinians had no say in this. I don't think that's rightful at all.

Also, I don't see how bulldozing rows and rows of homes in between borders without discretion (Think Israel's occupation in Gaza) is "defending". I guess my (Not very well-coordinated) point is, both sides hate eachother's guts.
monkey_called_narth
as much as i gather from what i ahve read so far consisted of the first kidnapping's condition was the release of all the children from the other contries prisons.

i think that is a reasonable demand.

other then that i have been really very busy the last few weeks with what is happening in mexico, the wil, and the comrade from spaiun which shall be arriving at my house wensday... that doesnt speak english (or alteast a very limited amount). so i havent really been able to follow the events.
Calantyr
QUOTE (monkey_called_narth @ Jul 16 2006, 10:30 AM) *
as much as i gather from what i ahve read so far consisted of the first kidnapping's condition was the release of all the children from the other contries prisons.

i think that is a reasonable demand.


Women and children, up to almost 5,000 of them I think.

I don't think it particularly fair OR sane considering that (I think) they have all gone to trial and been convicted of terrorist actions towards Israel and they're in prison in the first place to serve punishment for their crimes.

And No I'm not fond of locking up kids, but I'm also not fond of kids trying to blow up civilians.

As for the creation of the Israeli state in the first place... yeah that's a sticking point. If the European nations genuinely felt sorry for the persecution of the Jews then perhaps they should have given them land from within their own borders, not stealing someone elses. But the Jews decided on the Holy Land as it's their ancient homeland, so meh. And the Palestinians stole it from the previous occupants generations and generations ago. That's sorta the excuse.

Colonialism was never a good idea. The rather arbitrary carving up of it afterwards wasn't much better either.
pgrmdave
Israel pulled out of Gaza and Lebanon, and then this happened. Israel tried to be tolerant - not nice, but tolerant - and pulled out, trying to let everybody just live their lives, and Hamas and Hezbollah think it best to attack Israel. If France killed an English soldier and professed to want to wipe England off the face of the planet, would anybody stop England from attacking France?
That_Guy
Can someone please clear this up for me? Were the Israeli soldiers captured across the border, or did someone go into Israel to capture them? I'm not exactly keen on this.
pgrmdave
Hammas soldiers snuck across the border into Israel through a tunnel and they killed a number of soldiers (I'm not sure how many) and they captured one. I'm not sure, but I believe that Hezbollah also snuck across the border and captured two Israeli soldiers, but I haven't heard much about that.
I_am_the_best
QUOTE (That_Guy @ Jul 16 2006, 02:53 AM) *
As I remember, Israel was originally formed on previously Arab-owned land- and the only reason they succeeded is because Europe wanted to wash their hands of pre-Holocaust mistakes. The Palestinians had no say in this. I don't think that's rightful at all.

Also, I don't see how bulldozing rows and rows of homes in between borders without discretion (Think Israel's occupation in Gaza) is "defending". I guess my (Not very well-coordinated) point is, both sides hate eachother's guts.


I have always been told that the Jews fought for Israel and eventually bought it after the British cleared out and the UN offered it to them. The Palestinians weren't too fussed because the land was a rather large swamp. The Jews worked very hard on the land turning into the beautiful country it is today and after the Palestinians saw the potential of Israel, they disagreed. Besides, the Jews deserve Israel after being tortured like they were (and boy, can I tell you horror stories from it), 6,000,000 of them killed - that's almost the same amount of Israeli citizens.

I think that Israel is somewhat glad about the new prime minister. Instead of staying relatively calm and defensive, he is going for a more attacking approach proving the great potential of the army. Hezbollah, having weapons from many Arab countries, will be shown that they shall not use the weapons and if they do, shall be destructed. Besides, if they do use any nuclear weapons, Israel is so small that the surrounding countries shall too be affected.
Calantyr
QUOTE (I_am_the_best @ Jul 18 2006, 09:56 PM) *
I have always been told that the Jews fought for Israel and eventually bought it after the British cleared out and the UN offered it to them. The Palestinians weren't too fussed because the land was a rather large swamp. The Jews worked very hard on the land turning into the beautiful country it is today and after the Palestinians saw the potential of Israel, they disagreed. Besides, the Jews deserve Israel after being tortured like they were (and boy, can I tell you horror stories from it), 6,000,000 of them killed - that's almost the same amount of Israeli citizens.

I think that Israel is somewhat glad about the new prime minister. Instead of staying relatively calm and defensive, he is going for a more attacking approach proving the great potential of the army. Hezbollah, having weapons from many Arab countries, will be shown that they shall not use the weapons and if they do, shall be destructed. Besides, if they do use any nuclear weapons, Israel is so small that the surrounding countries shall too be affected.


Erm... the Palestinians were pretty fussed about the whole thing from day one. They were kicked out of their homes and had their land confiscated. And it wasn't useless swamp, this was valuable land along the coast.

And sure the Jews deserved something... but why should it be the Palestinians that gave them compensation for the holocaust made by Europeans? That's like me hitting you in the face and you suing a random stranger.

There is an awful lot of bad blood about the whole thing. But I'm not going to take sides as I think all parties have acted bloody stupidly in the whole matter...
Izzy
I think Israel is in their right to start attacking and blowing up Lebanon,(considering that they didn't release their captures soldiers) but I also think it would have made more sense to have a trade (if Israel had any of Lebanon's soldiers).

There's aslo been talk of a cease fire..How long do you think it'll take 'til it happens, or do you think that the UN will just let them blow the guts out of each other?
pgrmdave
A cease fire will come, likely within a week or so. A trade wouldn't really make sense for the Israelis, and it could set a dangerous precedent. A trade would mean that Israel would release people who could potentially harm Israeli citizens, probably would harm Israeli citizens, in return for Israeli soldiers, who would only be trying to prevent the harm. And it could make it more likely that Israeli soldiers are captured in the future to be used as bargaining chips.

Israel is fighting a war. People are dying on both sides. However, Israel was not, until recently, on an offensive, they were only defending themselves. War can only be won defensively if you can run your opponent out of resources, but with Israel's enemies being backed by Iran and Syria, the time it would take to run them out of resources is prohibitive - Israel had to go on the offensive.
That_Guy
Well, some invasion of some sort was definitely justified for Israel, but not to this scale. Blowing up bridges and shelling cities won't exactly help the sitiuation, because it's not that hard to hide two people somewhere in the mountains in a secret bunker.
I_am_the_best
But since Israel was made for the Jews, the Jews compared this to when they were in slavery in Egypt and were taken to the promised land, the land was their's at the very beginning at least... Perhaps what I have been told is a) a happier childish version and b.) particularly biased towards Israel.

^ But blowing up bridges snd shelling cities is proving to Lebanon and to Iran and Syria what Israel is capable of - and they are capable of a lot more! It's just a warning. They need to attack now or else they may never have the chance. It's odd though, a couple of years ago I was walking around Haifa without any fear at all (except for the disturbingly high security: soldiers walking around with machine guns, numerous baggage checks even entering markets...) and now it is being fled and bombed.

However, many citizens are very pleased about this war and believe that there shall be a positive outcome to it. It is time for Israel to take the upperhand and to anihilate terrorist groups and those for the destruction of Israel, and they shall win no doubt.
Calantyr
All the nations in the 'Middle East' know exactly how powerful Israel is. It's called a regional superpower for a reason.
It has been attacked numerous times in its short history. A few times all its neighbours have attacked it at once, and it has emerged victorious every single time (I think).

The Six Day War is a case in point. It's neighbours were gearing up for war and rattling their sabres threateningly at Israel. So Israel launched an offensive against all of them at once and beat the hell out of them.

In fact I do not think a nation has declared war on Israel since the Yom Kippur in '73, where they managed to beat back both Egypt and Syria at once before the cease-fire came into effect.

Don't mess with Israel, they have big sticks...
pgrmdave
The problem is that often it seems that Israel's neighbors provoke it and then complain when Israel attacks. An (imperfect, incomplete, impromptu) analogy:

Two children, Harry and Larry, are sitting in the back of a car. Harry starts to poke Larry. Larry complains to his parents, and they tell him just to ignore it. Well, Harry keeps poking Larry, and irritating him. This goes on so long that Larry just can't take it any more and punches Harry hard. Which one is in the right? Harry used inequal force, but only after trying to be peaceful. Larry was hurt badly, but had many chances to stop poking, and thus not be harmed by retaliation.
I_am_the_best
Inequal force? I think that it is equal force really. The Palestinians have been bombing Israel almost every week with suicide bombers, you just don't hear about it as much anymore because it's no longer news, just a daily occurrence. And now that Israel starts to bomb them back it's news, so one hears about it. If Larry had a background of bullying and rejection since the womb and Harry had been hitting him on the arm instead of poking... smile.gif
That_Guy
Revenge isn't justification enough- the invasion of Lebanon will only provoke these suicide bombers even more, and just because a group of rogues are attacking a country does not mean that said country can go about randomly attacking cities. The Israelis were probably as happy as all get-out when two of their soldiers were captured, it gave them justification for a full-scale invasion on Lebanon (Which will probably end up concluding with occupation and a puppet government) without having to offer an explanation to the U.N.
I_am_the_best
^ They're not invading Lebanon. They don't want Lebanon. They just want Israel. Lebanon is being bombed. And it's not just a group of rogues, it is almost the entire of the Middle East who are attacking them.

Also, I don't really agree that Israel was happy about the captured soldiers. Of the people I've spoken to in Israel, a large majority were simply scared of what would come next. It wasn't really a good event, it was more a final straw. It's not like they're looking for excuses to attack, why would they bother? It's a matter of life and death for the entirity of Israel.
That_Guy
Are you kidding me? I just saw on the news about how Israel was just getting ready to occupy a city. And as for a matter of life and death, bombing civillians isn't going to save Israel. Heck- it's probably going to hurt them. Blood will not clean blood. I thought we had learned this from the sitiuation in Iraq- the number of suicide bombers spiked since the invasion in 2001. The only reason Israel is in trouble right now is because they have refused to pay the Piper on their land, not one penny of consolation to the people they have stolen it from.

Besides, Israel has one of the best armies on the planet. Why would they even bother putting up with all the attacks on them if they didn't have any moral obligation holding them back? The Israeli military brass probably went in there with intentions closer to flattening cities out of rage than to rescuing soldiers.
I_am_the_best
I am not sure which news you're watching, it sounds fairly biased. Israel doesn't want to invade Lebanon. They don't want Lebanon. What on Earth would they want Lebanon for?

And it is a matter of life and death. If Israel sat quietly sipping cups of tea whilst Hezbollah planned their attacks, they'd probably be dead by now, all of them.

They didn't go in with the intention of flattening citie out of rage. If they were angry, don't you think they would have done something years and years ago? This is almost 60 years of on and off fighting.

I think perhaps Hezbollah took these two soldiers to almost egg the Israelis on and tease them slightly. They are very stupid, they should know who they're messing with! Also, Israel does warn civilians to get out of the cities before they bomb them, they're bombing systematically. Lebanon is bombing randomly. Israel wants to destroy Hezbollah, the civilian deaths are just what come from war and you can't help it.
bryden42
when I am god, I am going to take away the land in question and then neither of the naughty boys can play with it, they can then both sit in their rooms and think about it.
That_Guy
Oh, if only it were that easy.
pgrmdave
Israel tried being peaceful, and they were still attacked. Would you sit idly by as your family was attacked? Israel is trying to destroy a threat to its citizens. Yes, they have killed civilians, but what choice do they really have? Israelis are being killed, and they are being killed by a group which chooses to hide among civilians. Should the Israelis simply give up, and allow terrorists to continue to attack so long as they hide among citizens?
Calantyr
QUOTE (pgrmdave @ Jul 21 2006, 03:30 PM) *
Israel tried being peaceful, and they were still attacked. Would you sit idly by as your family was attacked? Israel is trying to destroy a threat to its citizens. Yes, they have killed civilians, but what choice do they really have? Israelis are being killed, and they are being killed by a group which chooses to hide among civilians. Should the Israelis simply give up, and allow terrorists to continue to attack so long as they hide among citizens?


Certainly not. But systematic bombings runs of all the infrastructure (and large residential areas) of Lebanon in almost certainly not the answer. You only have to look at Iraq to see how well that deals with terrorism.

Of course Isarel is going to be branded with hot irons no matter what they do.
pgrmdave
I don't think that what they are doing will solve the problem completely, but I don't know what else they should do. They pulled out, they were peaceful, they have the ability to completely annihilate the middle east, but all they want is Israel, and yet their neighbors still continued to murder them. They are acting out of frustration, and I don't blame them. Since they tried being peaceful, they are trying to be forceful. Perhaps it will work, perhaps it won't, but at least it's an attempt to change things.
That_Guy
I think the real victim here is the Palestinians. Israel has already given up Gaza and (I believe) the West Bank, and yet the Islamic extremist leaders continue to convince them that Israel is trying to squash them.

If anything, Israel should give some sort of penance to the Palestinians for the land that they had taken from them. Not that it's right, but it could mollify them without causing a lot of bloodshed.
bryden42
I know that my previous message was a little infantile but I do mean the sentiment behind it, This is a fight, just like the issues in northern island, for a scrap of land. I know there are a lot of other issues that have arrisen since, but at its heart, this is a fight for a bit of land.
I have seen this so many times.... do you know where? in the playground, "Its my teddy bear" "No its not it's mine" I had it first" "yeah But I have it now" "but its mine" "you put it down" "didn't say you could have it though", For f**k sake can't people grow up?
Anyone any ideas how many times the British isles have been invaded/conquered/colonised, not sure myself but its loads, (the French, the Norse, the Romans to name the first three to come to my head) it happens and has done since the day we realised that the seas were a bit choppy and decided to crawl out of them onto land.
And I'm not even going to start on the "my god said it was ours" "no my god said it's ours" argument!
To reiterate, this is playground politics taken to the global stage, played with bigger nastier sticks and it infuriates me that these 2 supposedly ancient religions/civilisations can't act like the "growed ups" they are and come to some arrangement. mad.gif
I_am_the_best
First war Israel has lost and only because they were told to stop. Now The surrounding countries shall see this as a chance and hope that they can demolish Israel. Everyone is very terrified.
gothictheysay
bryden42, I agree. smile.gif It's so hard to explain sometimes because everyone wants to pick sides.

IATB, wasn't there a ceasefire ordered? Both Lebanon, or Hizbollah, and Israel stopped, so I can't see any way that Israel "lost", unless I'm not up to date on something. I don't think surrounding countries will see it as a chance to demolish Israel - a lot of them have wanted to demolish Israel anyway. I dunno, I was kind of happy to hear that there was a ceasefire and no one else would be hurt.
I_am_the_best
I can see your point but all the newspapers were saying that Israel accepted defeat. It was a very difficult war with many moral complications and Olmad (I forgot the new priminister's name) admitted that he had made many mistakes. Although Hezbollah have stopped, all the other countries and terrorist groups will think 'Aah, so Israel are possible to defeat - they must be getting weaker!' and such like. Especially since Hamas was recently elected in Egypt... who knows what could happen? The fear is that Tel Aviv will be bombed. I mean, there are often suicide bombs there and all over the rest of Israel but an air raid would really be the end of it. It is so terrifying.
That_Guy
The countries surrounding Israel know her power all too well. Israel is known to have one of the best-trained armies in the world, not to mention their 3-billion-dollar budget, courtesy of the US of A.

Although you are correct about the terrifying part. Innocent bystanders- of both sides, mind you- are the true victims in this sitiuation. I remember seeing a newscast about a man living outside of Israel, somewhere in the mountains. Everyone in his town was living in constant fear of being blown to smithereens by Israeli shellings that were claimed to be directed towards terrorist groups.
Mata
On a side note: it puts the 'risk' of terrorist attacks in the West into perspective when you know that in Irsael over the past few weeks you were still four times more likely to be killed by a car than you were from a terrorist attack. How much more of a risk are cars to people in our countries than terrorism, and how much more attention does terrorism get from our governments?
Calantyr
QUOTE (Mata @ Aug 21 2006, 07:54 AM) *
On a side note: it puts the 'risk' of terrorist attacks in the West into perspective when you know that in Irsael over the past few weeks you were still four times more likely to be killed by a car than you were from a terrorist attack. How much more of a risk are cars to people in our countries than terrorism, and how much more attention does terrorism get from our governments?


There's a slight difference between accidental road accidents and actively seeking out people to murder them with bombs. There is less chance of getting knifed in the street than there is of getting run down by a car, but we are justifiably worried about it.

Only idiots will see this as a sign of Israel getting weaker. Israel didn't fulfill its objectives because it restrained itself. Despite what some media sources have implied, Israel DID try to limit civilian casualties on both sides. It did not use the full force available to it.

In a total war where the survival of the Israeli state is on the line we will see the full fury of the beast. There is nothing in the region that would be able to stand up to that now that the Iraqi army is gone. I pity the fool that tries.
I_am_the_best
Yes, I think that Al Qaeda came with a video saying that the supporters of Israel will be attacked. Although British media is pretty biased towards Palestinians, I think the country as a whole is counted as supporting Israel.

I should hope everyone's getting used to the new airport security checks! You should see it in Israel - 3 hours of security for non-jews! Israel has certainly learnt its lesson about airport security ever since the first Japanese tourists came to Israel (one of them opened is suitcase, removed a machine gun and shot randomly at anyone. My uncle was sent to go to the airport being important in El Al and said that the blood was literally running like a river.) But I am so glad that our police force precented the attacks that were to happen recently. I am scared of what will happen in the future.
thatguy486
If it comes down to a mass invasion of Israel, they'll take the middle east out of the equation. There Military is on par with the US, British, and Germans. In a stand up fight, Israel always has and always will win. IMHO the Israelis had every justification for their actions in Lebanon. They were giving up old territories to the Palestinians, they were trying to put the conflict to rest by appeasing the Palestinians. So Hamas and Hezbollah capture soldiers thinking that they can start doing whatever they want and Israel will comply if it means peace. The Israelis decided, no were not going to bend over to these terrorist acts. They went into Lebanon looking to personally demolish Hezbollah. They said if we do not get our men back we will turn the clock back of Lebanese industry 50 years. They were provoked, they reacted.

2001, 9-11 the united states suffers from the worst terrorist act in history. Why? because Al-Qaeda thought that if they could cause enough damage at once they could scare us into giving them concessions. Instead we decided we aren't going to bend over to a terrorist group who just murdered thousands of our fellow citizens. So we invaded Afghanistan and ended the threat. We then took it a step further and rebuilt Afghanistan when we could have just left them in total ruin. (I'm not going to mention Iraq because in my opinion as an American we had no reason to go and shouldn't be there right now) What Israel and the US have shown is that when you anger either the regional super power OR the only super power left in existence they WILL fight back.

Times are dark for the simple fact that whoever perpetrates a terrorist act against either of these nations will end up with them at their doorstep. When I see the aggressive nature of Israel I see them wanting this threat over, and their willing to end it themselves. Their tired of giving in, tired of having to apologize for retaliations on attacks made against them. They want peace and their willing to go to war to secure it. If the human race has shown anything throughout the course of history, its that peace only comes after war. If the middle east does explode into turmoil, then its self induced. They were the aggressors, and when we bite back they complain to the rest of the world that were being Imperialistic and that were warmongering. The sad thing is that the rest of the world gives Israel the slap on the wrist saying they shouldn't have retaliated. They do it because there all tied to the middle east financially, and they don't want to lose money because they supported Israel. The world only cares about two things nowadays. Money and Land, those are the only reasons were still having wars anywhere around the world. Its because were running out of room and money. Until the population stops growing, theres going to be an increase in fighting for land and money.

I say we all get off our collective butts and use they money we do have to start colonizing the Moon and Mars. Id say with 120 years of dedicated world wide research we could have the technology to do such an act. So why don't we? Because everyone is to attached to their money to give it up.

I'm starting to rant so I'm going to finish up.

Israel retaliated to an attack against them. Its all simple scientific law. For every action there is an opposite reaction. But the Israelis didn't want an equal one so they took it to the next level and have turned the clock back on Lebanon's infrastructure so they cannot buy the weapons from Syria and Iran that have hurt Israel in the past. They got tired of being poked to quote, pgrmdave.
Calantyr
QUOTE (thatguy486 @ Aug 21 2006, 02:33 PM) *
Stuff


I'd agree with a large part of that.

The problem is that Hezbollah attacked Israel because they think Israel attacked first. Both sides see the other as the aggressor, no matter the realities of matters.

For Hezbolla, Israel simply existing is an attack against them. I really don't see this ending.
thatguy486
It will end when eiether hezbollah/hamas cease to exist or when Israel no longer exists.

The least likely being the latter.
That_Guy
Even if Hezbollah were to be destroyed, there's no telling if the fight would stop. Hatred of Israel is deep-seeded within Arab cultures- From an early age most Arabs refer to Israelis as pigs, and children's games are slightly different in places like Gaza (Such as "Kill the Israelis").
thatguy486
True, Im just saying that the attacks form hezbollah/hamas will end only when eiether criteria is met.
I_am_the_best
I doubt it will ever end fully. I mean, even if the governments agree to live in peace, there will always be groups of people who still don't want Israel there. Ever since Israel was created they have been arguing. It's the norm in a scary morbid way.
thatguy486
It depends, give a people enough time the newer generations of Arabs might grow old of the conflict and choose peace.
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