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believe
why one woman didn't have sex before marriage

It's actually not as controversial as it sounds. I posted the link because the articles expresses some of my views, but doesn't do it in a self-righteous or preachy fashion. Anyway, just curious what people think around the issue and what you might have personally experienced as far as yourself/friends being happy, sad or whatnot.
Phyllis
I wouldn't marry someone without having sex with them first. Sex is a pretty important part of (most) romantic relationships, and I'd rather make sure we're compatible in that respect before tying the knot.

I don't care if other people choose to wait -- that's great if it works for them. I really hate the concept of "purity" though, especially when it's often implied that it's only the girls who should be "pure." As an example, from the comments on that article: "I always say I'm not going to marry a girl unless she is a virgin. I have regreted (sic) having sex many times..." So he's had sex, but he expects his future wife to wait. Yeah, that sounds fair. rolleyes.gif Then there are all those Purity Balls (I cannot type that without giggling. I am apparently 12), where teenaged (and younger) girls pledge to their fathers that they'll stay a virgin until marriage. There is an equivalent for boys, but I don't think it's anywhere near as popular. I really hate that kind of attitude, and I think it's rather damaging to young girls. Sex should not be treated as something that is an achievement for men, but shameful for women.

Oh, and for the love of all that is holy, if you (general you) wait until marriage to have sex, do not write that fact into your wedding vows. I found out when I was planning my wedding to moop that some people (thankfully, very few) actually do this. They have the officiant babble on about how they kept themselves pure. I'm not sure how long this practice has been going on, but I suspect they may have gotten the idea from Jessica Simpson. rolleyes.gif It's just tacky. Your great aunt Mildred doesn't want to hear about that stuff.
CrazyFooIAintGettinOnNoPlane
Yeah I agree. Outside of religion, I don't see any reason to view virginity as something special.

QUOTE
I've had the opportunity to have sex but I couldn't imagine giving my body to just anyone!
... blink.gif

Oh and also...
QUOTE
I decided when I was young that I wanted to wait for sex until I fell in love.
I misread that as "I decided when I was young that I wanted to wait for sex before I fell in love" laugh.gif
believe
crazymat:
QUOTE
Oh and also... 'I won't give my body to just anyone'


Outside of religion, that's the part I get. Out of my girlfriends, I know only one that is glad she had sex when she did and with who she did. I don't expect the non-religious to wait until marriage as that's more of a religious thing, but I suspect there's a happier medium that what we are currently in. It's very, very sad to me out of that many girls, only one doesn't have some bad memory. >_o

I should have made that clearer, but I also wanted to try and leave it open to input all the way around.
believe
cand:
QUOTE
So he's had sex, but he expects his future wife to wait. Yeah, that sounds fair.


But only women can be whores. wink.gif

QUOTE
I really hate that kind of attitude, and I think it's rather damaging to young girls. Sex should not be treated as something that is an achievement for men, but shameful for women.


That seems to be American culture in general, even far outside of religion. Like the poor girl that killed herself over sexting. They were very, very quick to brand her a whore.

And cand, I thought you wanted to hear about my virginity in elaborate detail! ...Yeah. >.>
Mata
I've had six sexual partners and I'm 32. I think that's slightly below average for people in roughly similar social situations to me (in some areas in Britain you could easily find people with more partners who are half my age).

I agree with Cand that sex is an important part of a relationship and I wouldn't want to commit to a lifetime with a person if we weren't both being sexually satisfied. For that reason, waiting until marriage seems like a bad idea. Of the people I've been intimate with, only about a third have been people with whom I think we've mutually had fun. The rest were okay experiences, I don't regret them, but it was pretty clear that it was never really going to click for some reason. I don't think I like the odds of risking that the person I'm marrying might be one of the third that I click with!

There might also be an attitude thing there too - I look at sex as a way of expressing love, so for someone to say 'I'm not going to love you fully until we're married' seems very weird. To me you get married because you fully love someone, not because you're holding your feelings back. If I express love through sex then that is a way of seeing the strength of the relationship. If it's not reciprocated or the love doesn't feel right then that's a good indicator that it wouldn't be a good idea to marry!

I'm not saying that sex is a deciding factor in marriage. Having great sex with someone is just part of a relationship and you need to be able to express love in other ways that click together too, but that's my point really. A couple needs to be able to express their love in so many different ways that it seems really strange to me to decide to hold back one of those ways due to believing that it's something that will just work if all the other ways feel right. I've loved people dearly and the sex didn't feel right, I've had great sex and the rest of the relationship didn't feel right. Neither of those arrangements would be suitable for a marriage.
Phyllis
QUOTE (believe @ May 21 2009, 11:21 AM) *
Out of my girlfriends, I know only one that is glad she had sex when she did and with who she did.

I can't think of any of my friends who have expressed regret at losing their virginity when they did. I can think of one who is a bit deluded and thinks she didn't lose it when she did (her reasoning was because the guy pulled out, it didn't count), but that's a different story.

I'm married, but I didn't lose my virginity to my husband. The guy I did lose it to ended up being a complete douchenozzle, but so what? It was a mistake (probably the biggest one I have ever made), but I don't want to live a life where I'm afraid to make mistakes. I don't want to spend my life wondering "what if?" I don't regret what happened. In a weird way, I think that whole fiasco made me appreciate moop a whole lot more when I ended up with him. The fact that I had sex with someone else before I was with him doesn't diminish our relationship. I don't think if I had waited to have sex until I met him that we would have shared some sort of deeper bond. I don't feel like I gave away a part of myself or something like that. I've just had more experience. Innocence is overrated, if you ask me.
Daria
I lost my virginity when I was (if you'll excuse the term) shitfaced at a party to someone I didn't really know and had only met once before, who was sober. I wanted to do it at the time, and although I have vague regrets about the consequences of the act, I don't regret when or to whom I lost it. I had a sexually active relationship after that, and it was only until I went out with someone AFTER we had split up that I really felt it was a special time and woop-de-doo there goes my virginity. It had nothing to do with a hymen, with the act of having a penis in my vagina- it was the fact that I had a mental connection with this person and it meant something to me.
I can't imagine not having sex with someone I love. There is something incredible about "making love" to someone you feel that strongly about.
Anyway, sex should be fun. It can be kinky, vanilla, gay, dirty, sticky, painful, weird: but it should always be fun. I don't get why people decide that they are more true to themselves if they deny themselves a big huge chunk of adult fun. I completely understand the Not Being Ready For It Yet, but I just don't see why people feel that they are doing a better or more-right thing by Not Wanting To Be Ready For It Until I Sign A Piece Of Paper.


Yay for sex! Sex sex sexy sex sex.
Yannick
Totally cannot imagine myself waiting for marriage. I think the *first* time should be special, but you don't have to be married for something to be special.

There's this shirt that like half the kids at my school own. It's an awesome shade of blue with hot pink font, and on the front says the school name, something about it being a challenge, and the date. On the back, it says "I <3 boys/girls but..." and then underneath in smaller font a bible verse and a promise to never undress anyone with their eyes. I want to design a shirt in the same colors, but different words. On the front, in quotation marks, "Sex and drugs, I abstain.", and on the back "I think Christians are insane." (NOFX lyrics.)
believe
QUOTE (Yannick @ May 21 2009, 09:29 AM) *
There's this shirt that like half the kids at my school own. It's an awesome shade of blue with hot pink font, and on the front says the school name, something about it being a challenge, and the date. On the back, it says "I <3 boys/girls but..." and then underneath in smaller font a bible verse and a promise to never undress anyone with their eyes. I want to design a shirt in the same colors, but different words. On the front, in quotation marks, "Sex and drugs, I abstain.", and on the back "I think Christians are insane." (NOFX lyrics.)


Aww. I don't have time to post intelligently as today is believe-must-catchup-in-math-homework day, but I want one of those shirts.
Yannick
I take it you don't mean mine?
Mata
Knowing that Believe is Christian but seems to have a quite sensible view on how barking a lot of religious people are, I think she might mean yours biggrin.gif
Phyllis
I'm 99.8% certain she didn't mean Izzy's. Now watch her come along and prove me wrong... tongue.gif

QUOTE
I think the *first* time should be special, but you don't have to be married for something to be special.

I'm not sure I completely agree with that. I know that my first time I was expecting it to be some amazing, special new experience. It wasn't. I remember thinking after the fact, "Huh. That's it? That's what all the fuss is about?" I tend to think my reaction is more common than not, at least among women. It's great once you get the hang of it, but the first time is kind of awkward and just, well, weird. I don't think people should pin many hopes on that first time being a memory they will cherish forever. I cared about the guy at the time, but I don't think I'd call the experience "special." It could be that I'm just strange, though.
believe
No real comment as I have to go finish more math and then sleep, but no, I didn't mean Izzy's t-shirt.

Mata, if it makes you feel better, I -have- been tempted to get the 'God protect me from Your follower's' bumper sticker before.
Smiler
"Cthulu wants you...

for a sandwich"
- Best 'religious' bumper sticker I've seen for ages.

Anyway, on the sex vs. marriage first argument I've never really seen why the two should be mutually exclusive. I was bought up as a Catholic (Irishly so) and sex after marriage was never really mentioned. Equally, in my family and teachings at Catholic schools I was always taught to "be careful, and use protection" if your going to do it at all as opposed to get "that rythm right, but leave it for the wedding night", this left me feeling far better about myself- it's my choice, it may be unwise in hindsight but then so's most of life's choices, and so long as you've made the right choice and been safe with it then notch it up to experience and move on.

Having lived with FaerieRyn for the last two and a half years, been together for four years, and getting married a week today it'll probably shock no one that we've bumbed uglies many a time pre-next Friday. I don't think we would be half as close as we are had we not been intimate as it's a very natural expression of our love for eachother (damn that sounds trite). It's also great fun being so close with someone.

In more recent times questioning ones belief systems and the set 'rules' of local culture is the norm and if you investigate something to a result opposed to the prevailent thinking due to a reasoned rational all power to you. I believe that the abstainance line can mean that you miss out on so much but is essentially your personal choice so long as it's made for the right reason and your not so stubborn to limit yourself if 'the right opportunity' arises. I also just wonder what makes a wedding night so much more 'special' than any other night, considering it's a bloody stressful and tiring day.
gothictheysay
QUOTE
It's great once you get the hang of it, but the first time is kind of awkward and just, well, weird. I don't think people should pin many hopes on that first time being a memory they will cherish forever. I cared about the guy at the time, but I don't think I'd call the experience "special." It could be that I'm just strange, though.


Haha, this is so true. I mean, it was sort of special in some way, obviously. It was a big step. But it definitely wasn't the sort of memory you'd cherish forever tongue.gif It wasn't bad or anything, but it was a little awkward and pretty weird. The most important thing to me (this is the cheesy part) is that we'd already told each other that we loved one another beforehand, so it felt right to me. I figured my first time should be with someone I loved, and I felt it was the proper time. Worked for me, but to each their own! It is weird for me to think about virgins substantially older than me, though, for some reason... it's a little mind-boggling...
I_am_the_best
Sex is essentially the closest that you can ever be to a person. I think it's like a little secret that you hold, and should only share with someone you trust. I also think that marriage is completely 'sacred' (not in a necessarily religious sense, but because it is a total dedication of your life to someone else). These two views combined mean that I'm going to wait for marriage. I'm not strongly opposed in anyway to sex before marriage, and if the situation arose where I would be comfortable to sleep with someone outside of marriage then I may well do. I just think it would be really nice to wait until the wedding night. Perhaps I'm just too much of a romantic... That said, I will gladly do any other sexual acts (within reason obv).
believe
Mata: I'm hoping experimentation (short of sex) will give me a hint, but we shall see. I can't say I've never wondered along those lines (ie are we compatible, how would you know, etc). Then again, several people have had strict courtships or even arranged marriages and ended happy in bed and out. I suspect those cases that you can either develop or improve what's there already.

Cand:
QUOTE
I can't think of any of my friends who have expressed regret at losing their virginity when they did.


I do appreciate the perspective. It's nice that some people had better experiences than the ones I was surrounded by. Some of that might be the amount of depression in our little group. Work doesn't help as far as positive input as I'm surrounded by people that have usually had hideous experiences, but drug addicts and the often messed up families that produce them are not the best control group.

It is spiffy that it made you appreciate moop more. Learning experiences aren't necessarily a bad thing, for sure.

QUOTE
I don't think if I had waited to have sex until I met him that we would have shared some sort of deeper bond. I don't feel like I gave away a part of myself or something like that. I've just had more experience. Innocence is overrated, if you ask me.


Hm. This seems pretty individual and I'm wondering if it's related to your world views, the value on you place on it, etc.

QUOTE
I don't think people should pin many hopes on that first time being a memory they will cherish forever. I cared about the guy at the time, but I don't think I'd call the experience "special." It could be that I'm just strange, though.


I'm kinda expecting it to be semi-awkward, especially if it ends up hurting a lot. blink.gif

Daria:
QUOTE
I don't get why people decide that they are more true to themselves if they deny themselves a big huge chunk of adult fun.


Well, part of it, is that people often aren't true to themselves. I'm sure this varies by group of friends, but how many girls have you seen put out to keep a man, because their boyfriend wanted it, because they were drunk, etc? Teenagers are notorious, but adult women or men aren't necessarily much better. I'm not telling people what to feel about their experiences, but the times I personally made out with people at parties or let them feel up? It wasn't some true to myself, exploring my desires crap. It was because everyone else was, because I was supposed to want this and because I desperate to feel something besides pain. Deciding to wait until marriage (for reasons religious and non) kept me from doing something stupid. People (I'm more talking teenagers here, but..) don't always know when they're ready or what they want, let alone enough to be 'true to themselves'.

Now that I'm older and supposedly wiser? Well, I waited this long and I'm not in a hurry. I don't -need- to have sex and it isn't like I go around having to repress myself all the time. When and if it happens, hey, awesome and I hope it works out. I don't feel more or less true to myself without it though, as I'm defined by a lot of things besides my desires.

Smiler:
QUOTE
I also just wonder what makes a wedding night so much more 'special' than any other night, considering it's a bloody stressful and tiring day.


Especially if it's one of the chicks that went insane with the wedding planning stuff. I don't get that either.
Daria
I am the best:
QUOTE
That said, I will gladly do any other sexual acts (within reason obv).

I have a friend that lives with the same philosophy and so I wondered: for you, what differentiates sex as opposed to... say... oral sex?
Something that is apparently becoming more popular between abstinent teens in the US is anal sex- you can't get pregnant, it's not "real" sex and you stay a virgin! Wooo! (However what's not being taught about anal sex is that it is very very easy to pass on STDs aaaand so they are on the rise too.)

Believe
QUOTE
Now that I'm older and supposedly wiser? Well, I waited this long and I'm not in a hurry. I don't -need- to have sex and it isn't like I go around having to repress myself all the time. When and if it happens, hey, awesome and I hope it works out. I don't feel more or less true to myself without it though, as I'm defined by a lot of things besides my desires.

That's a pretty good mindset to have smile.gif Maybe that, instead of abstinence, should be taught to kids. You mentioned girls/ women putting out because their boyfriend wanted it- I think if I'd met any of my friends who said that something like that had happened to them, I would have slapped them and told them to get more self respect for themselves wink.gif But that is mostly because of feminist ideals and beliefs I have.

*wanders off singing "Respect Yourself"*
Mata
Maybe I've got a sligtly different view on things, but my first time was because I was pretty much jumped by the girl. It was a one-night-stand type of thing, not especially 'sexy', but it got the first-time pressure out of the way, so I have no regrets (and of course I used protection). I'd never even kissed anyone before that day, so the girl definitely could be described as having sex to want to please me - she wanted to have sex. With the benefit of hindsight, if it wasn't me then it probably would have been someone else.

I respect your choice Believe, but some of the things you've written make it sound like all the pressure to have sex comes from the man. Women like to have sex too, and sometimes they are the ones who are more excited about diving into a physical relationship than the men.

Again, I've perhaps got a tilted view of things because with all the people I've dated, we've always had sex inside the first couple of days of getting together, usually the first 24 hours. With consenting adults using protection I don't really see anything wrong with that. I look at sex as a way of expressing love, that's true, but it is also a lot of fun, and I don't really see the need to resist it if both people are equally willing!
gothictheysay
Mata! you scandalous man, you tongue.gif

I think the "both people equally willing" part is the most important part. If both people are comfortable with what they're doing, then yeah, why wait? But if one person has any doubts, waiting a little while is just fine too. I suppose it also matters what sex means to you - it's perfectly acceptable to put down limits and boundaries. If marriage is the boundary you want to put down, that's fine as long as it suits you! I personally couldn't imagine it. But, then again I couldn't imagine having sex outside of a relationship when I was a virgin, and that's happened too!

When I met my current boyfriend, we fond out we were fond of each other rather quickly, so things progressed not too long after meeting each other wink.gif However, after we had gone quite a ways and I asked about sex, he hesitated and then said he had vowed to only ever do that in a relationship. So we didn't have sex then, but we did later when we decided to date! biggrin.gif I thought it was awfully sweet of him to have that sort of ideal, and I admired him for sticking to it. Not that anything would've been wrong with having sex then if he wanted to, but I definitely respected that he didn't want to, and I could totally understand where he was coming from.
believe
Daria:
QUOTE
That's a pretty good mindset to have Maybe that, instead of abstinence, should be taught to kids. You mentioned girls/ women putting out because their boyfriend wanted it- I think if I'd met any of my friends who said that something like that had happened to them, I would have slapped them and told them to get more self respect for themselves But that is mostly because of feminist ideals and beliefs I have.


hee. I would support this, but note damaged people sometimes have to be built up to make those decisions. It still hurts me, but I have a lot more compassion now. And trust me, I don't want abstinence taught to kids, at least by itself. They're likely going to have sex without rules and consequences enforced for doing so (and even then...) and I don't think setting them up to fail and produce children they aren't ready for is a better proposition.

Mata:
QUOTE
but some of the things you've written make it sound like all the pressure to have sex comes from the man. Women like to have sex too, and sometimes they are the ones who are more excited about diving into a physical relationship than the men.


Yes, probably because I've never dealt with the reverse. I've never heard a male friend, client or acquaintance complain about being pressured to have sex. Or that a girl was harassing for their body or that they weren't ready, etc. I believe you that it happens, I've just never, ever been around it. The one friend that was jumped on by a girl at.. 12? 13? thought it was awesome. I'm a little more dubious about the age thing there, but.. yeah. It's just hard to wrap my mind around with the men I've known.

In any case, despite my religious beliefs, I'm not attacking sex between consensual adults. If she wants to have sex and he wants to sex, well, hey, I can respect the choice of two consenting adults whether I agree or not. My concern is more that cultural pressure (SEX SEX SEX!! NOW!), emotional vulnerability and other factors could lead to people make choices they will regret, feel degraded by and/or may not want to make. I'm thrilled that the women in your life were confident, made decisions about what they wanted and that you had a good time. It's just not what always happens.

Again, I'm not arguing with the people that found it a learning experience or empowering. Hey, cool and rock on.

It's a bit like my feelings about arranged marriage. In my feminist days, it was pretty horrifying to me. The abuses of it still are. I had the realization though, that some arranged marriages are happy and that some people even enjoy it or aspects of it. Some successful marriages spring out of it, even in America. The point of this example is one size doesn't fit all and what works out awesomely for some people won't work so well in other circumstances. Rocket science, I know. wink.gif

gothictheysay:: I believe in warning men in advance. For some reason. wink.gif
Daria
In your feminist days? You mean one day you suddenly stopped wanting equality between the sexes? tongue.gif
believe
QUOTE (Daria @ May 23 2009, 10:33 AM) *
In your feminist days? You mean one day you suddenly stopped wanting equality between the sexes? tongue.gif


Hee. No. But I've relaxed quite a bit. For me, feminism was linked with fear. Expecting equality is a given whether I'm an official feminist or not. wink.gif I suppose I hesitate to identify more officially given that I can be more traditional in some senses and I don't feel I have to justify certain beliefs. Ie if I end up having small children, I think it's better that I stay home with them. I also think it's spiffy if a woman -wants- to be a housewife, I just don't think people should be forced into molds. Miserable woman don't make better, healthier mothers and people. Go figure.
Mata
Maybe my friends and I are weird, but a lot of the men I know have stories about women pressuring them to have sex when they're not so interested. I've got a few myself! The only time I have been slapped was by a woman who had been coming on to me all night and in whom I wasn't interested. I'd been politely declining for a couple of hours and eventually told her fairly bluntly (because she really wasn't getting the hints) that I didn't want to do anything physical with her - she got rather annoyed about this and slapped me.

Man... That was the suckiest New Year's Eve ever...

Maybe men don't usually admit this kind of thing to women because of cultural pressure that says we're supposed to want to have sex with anything with approximately two legs, but it's true that men don't always want to have sex as much as women.
believe
Wow. Maybe it's just the British women? ;P More seriously, I don't know. Don't know if it's more to do with choice of friends, area, going out more or whatever. Food for thought though.
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