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Oni Usagi
I've been reading some recent posts and wondered.
Also, to add a little bit more content to each post, please answer a simple question: Would you date someone who spoke Elvish (any variant) or Klingon?

I think Klingon is a bit more geeky, simply because elves are (slightly) more mainstream. Also because Elves good guys where Klingons are generally bad guys (I think).

Also, I would soo date a girl who spoke elven laugh.gif (if I could find one wink.gif ). I would also date a girl who spoke Klingon, but speaking Klingon would be neither a plus or a minus.
Ikemook
I dunno, maybe I'm just an insensitive ass, but...

Why in heaven's name do people bother to learn these languages?

I mean, if you're going to put the time into learning something, learn something USEFUL *_* Japanese, Cantonese, Mandarin, Korean, French, German, Spanish, just pick something that people actually speak on a regular basis.

There are plenty of interesting, challenging, and unique human languages out there that I can hardly see why you would need to learn the language of a people that don't even exist.

I guess there's some sort of cool factor that I'm not seeing here.

And sure, I guess I would date someone who spoke Elven or Klingon, but I'd probably end up asking her why she learned the language. Which would ultimately lead to me voicing the above opinion.

Which would probably lead to no more dating of said woman ^_~

David
CommieBastard
Ikemook: Can't speak for others, and I don't actually speak either of those languages, but I've been known to learn languages for fun. Elven is a very nice language - find somewhere on the Web where it's written phonetically and say it aloud. Maybe just because it's nice to speak?

Hell, I'd sure go out with a girl who spoke Elven. Try holding me back biggrin.gif I think the real test would come if she played D&D, though.
Artemisia
Commie, maybe we should get you and Jicama together....she has a long line of D&D playing in her family...was born into it... But she speaks Klingon, as you well know, not Elvish. Her mom, however, has a pedometer and is walking to Moria.

No more picking on Jicama for knowing Klingon!!!! This is one of the things that adds to her coolness, and she wouldn't be Jicama without it. And, as we all heard in the news last year, that can be a valuable skill (as in the incident where a person with mental problems would/could only speak Klingon and the psychiatrists in charge of him wanted to hire an interpretor. )
Sir Psycho Sexy
Can't really comment about the geekiness of knowing klingon....seeing as i own the official English - Klingon Dictionary tongue.gif

Though it was bought for me, I didn't buy it for myself....though I did ask for it >_>

Two of my favourite phrases being:

tachDaq maghom (We will meet in the cocktail lounge)

and

nuqDaq yuch Dapol (Where do you keep the chocolate?)
Cath Sparrow
I said both were equally geekie but in my books that's not a bad thing as I seem to find geeks sexy anyway! tongue.gif
CommieBastard
Elven is more old-school geek, I think...plus, there are a whole bunch of different dialects of Elven, speaking them all would be impressive.
Snugglebum the Destroyer
Personally, if I had to choose I think Klingon is definately more geeky.

However, I think it's really cool that someone would learn something that wasn't a 'real' language. You've got to admire that. biggrin.gif
Greeneyes
QUOTE (CommieBastard @ Jun 5 2004, 12:08 PM)
Elven is more old-school geek, I think...plus, there are a whole bunch of different dialects of Elven, speaking them all would be impressive.

I've got to ask. Who makes up these languages, and what are they based on? I imagine at least one is based on Tolkien, but what about the rest? Are they all variants on the same thing, or are there completely different ones?
CommieBastard
Tolkien created Elvish and all variants thereof - he was an Oxford Professor of Linguistics, and thus highly qualified to do so, as well as being a very intelligent man. As far as I know, they're all similar, variants on a theme rather than completely different languages. They all use the same alphabet, I think.
kidvicious2punk
i dunno..klingon i guess

cuz elvish is kewl biggrin.gif

klingon...lol...cling-on.... blink.gif laugh.gif
Phyllis
QUOTE (Cath @ Jun 5 2004, 03:23 AM)
I said both were equally geekie but in my books that's not a bad thing as I seem to find geeks sexy anyway! tongue.gif

Ditto! Elvish definitely sounds prettier, though.

Meanwhile, I know neither Klingon or Elvish, but I know a little Al Bhed. laugh.gif I had an Al Bhed custom title for a loooong time when I first joined. I didn't set out with the intent of learning a made-up language...it just sort of stuck from playing the game too much and playing with that translater I found.
Sir Maxerpopple
Klingon comes from various african dialects, which makes it less geeky. Why? Because I'm a trekkie and I say so.
QUOTE
where Klingons are generally bad guys (I think).
That depends. In TOS they were bad guys. In ST:TMP V they were representative of the USSR(to the fullest, though in TOS they were as well. In the more culturally understanding emphasis of TNG, the Klingons were portrayed in a more positive light. We got to see their ceremonies as well as their government. It showed their interesting culture, as opposed to the belligerent secrecy of TOS. In DS9, the Klingons are portrayed as fickle allies.

So, they're not so much villains so much as they are "different", though sometimes they do bad things, sort of like the Ferengi.

/\ geek
Righteous
Klingon, because Trekkies frighten me.

My brother and I want to make an animation where Patrick Stewart charges me to go save William Sharner from the clutches of a Trekky convention. Needless to say, I get to kick a lot of Trekky ass.
Tigersong
QUOTE (CommieBastard @ Jun 5 2004, 09:31 AM)
Tolkien created Elvish and all variants thereof - he was an Oxford Professor of Linguistics, and thus highly qualified to do so, as well as being a very intelligent man. As far as I know, they're all similar, variants on a theme rather than completely different languages. They all use the same alphabet, I think.

Although people have used the grammar and words that he set up and expanded quite a lot on them.

Klingon is probably geekier, because LotR went somewhat more mainstream in comparison to Star Trek. Still, Geekiness is the New Cool.
gothictheysay
Klingon is definitely geekier.

And sure I would. I'd make them teach me the language. I'd go for a Klingon over an Elvishspeaker wink.gif
acid_rain_child
I picked them as equal, but I'd say Klingon is worse in some degrees. The people who speak Klingon scare me more than people who speak Elvish. Beside, I can't stand Star Trek in general, the fans are kind of weird blink.gif but whatever floats your boat. I think Trekkies are geekier than Saturday night D&D players, because at least in D&D you have to interact with other human beings.

And then compare a Star Trek Convention *shivers* to say the Renaissance Festival. I think I change my vote to Klingon.
{Gothic Angel}
I used to speak elven rlly well, and know all the grammar and stuff, but I can hardly remember it at all now.

Klingon is "geekier" in the classic sense of "geek" because trekkies are usually the ones who speak it. And trekkies are like the stereotypical geeks.

Also, fantasy just adds and air of mystery an excitement to a usually recogniseable setting (medievil, western etc) whereas SciFi is more about the future and the unknown so people feel more threatened by it, hence fantasy being more mainstream

Plus theres the fact that Elvish sounds a lot nicer. Its the difference between Spanish and German.

Im done now.
artist.unknown
My cousin's a trekkie and he rather frightens me sometimes, but I have elvish written all over some jeans I savaged with a Sharpie and I'm a hopeless geek, so who knows. Although LotR IS more mainstream, it's not the *shudder* Orlando Bloom fangirls who learn elvish; it's still the real geeks. I think they're about equal on the geeky scale.

And as for people learning "useless" languages, the same could be said for Latin, and it's taught extensively (yes, it helps with English, but the point is, Latin's not going to help you in everyday life except to read nonsense like school mottos).
Sir Maxerpopple
I wouldn't equate latin to elvish. While not conventional, it is quite useful for the legal and medical professions, as well as english and other romance language scholarly activities.
Galder Weatherwax's Hat
Elvish is definetely the geekier, the reason being Klingon isn't geeky at all. It's nerdy.
Kamaradi
Ah, true. Good point.

Although, I'd rather be nerdy than geeky any day.
Ikemook
Latin definitely has uses. Beyond what Sir Maxerpopple wrote, Latin (as well as Greek) helps significantly with English grammer, as well as the grammer of any other language that Latin bleeds into.

Latin also has more "obvious" uses, such as translating and reading original Roman texts (as with Greek and Greek texts), and other such works originally written in Latin.

See, I'm one of those people who has lots of trouble learning languages. I'm not sure why; I can't think quick enough to listen to and successfully translate languages. Believe me, I've tried (hell, I still had problems with Latin, and you don't even speak that).

So I've never really understood why people who can learn languages easier than I can learn languages such as Klingon and Elvish. Don't get me wrong; I'm very impressed that Tolkien and others were capable of creating the languages. And I'm impressed that people have learned those languages (simply for the fact that they've learned a language). If you like it, and it floats your boat, learn it.

I just don't understand why *_*

Anyway, I'd say both are close enough to be equally geeky. Trekkies do tend to be on the scary side, but Tolkien fans can be (and are) just as obsessive.

It seems that Tolkien fans are less showy, and probably more accepted.

And to be fair, I really can't speak on geekiness. My screen name is a type of stone tool tradition, and I've spent a lot of time playing and revising Risk2210 with a bunch of friends *_*

David

[Edited to try and sound more respectful.]
Oni Usagi
QUOTE (Ikemook @ Jun 5 2004, 06:37 PM)
Latin also has more "obvious" uses, such as translating and reading original Roman texts (as with Greek and Greek texts), and other such works originally written in Latin.

Oh and I suppose Elven doesn't have that same use? I suppose Tolkien is still alive to translate all that stuff he wrote in elvish for us? I can't wait till he comes out with his next book! [/sarcasm]

Also, I believe that D&D has it's own variant of elvish, so knowing elvish doesn't necessarilly correspond to being a gamer geek for those of you who judge them, even though Gamer Geeks > all > elbow > people who make fun of gamers.
Ikemook
"Oh and I suppose Elven doesn't have that same use? I suppose Tolkien is still alive to translate all that stuff he wrote in elvish for us? I can't wait till he comes out with his next book! [/sarcasm]"

*blink* *confused* (It's the last sentence that confuses me, really)

"Also, I believe that D&D has it's own variant of elvish, so knowing elvish doesn't necessarilly correspond to being a gamer geek for those of you who judge them, even though Gamer Geeks > all > elbow > people who make fun of gamers. "

Oh, for future reference (though I'm sure you're all aware of this already):

When you can speak Elvish and your DM can't, it's not a good idea to say your spells in Elvish when you cast them ^_~ Had someone almost try this once, not out of malice, but because she thought it'd be cool. And perhaps normally it would have been, if I had, ya know, been able to understand her.

On that note, I wasn't aware there was an actual D&D variant of Elvish. At least, one written out in full.

David
Sir Psycho Sexy
Like Patrick Stewart has said in many an interview, the obsessive trekkies are a small minority which give the rest of the fan base a bad image, its always the case. I like alot of sci-fi, I wouldn't go to any conventions, but I still consider myself a fan. There are also different qualities of sci-fi, star trek and stargate (of the SG1 variety) are in my opinion generally better thought out than things like andromida which just seems to be one HUGE disaster after another yet they still manage to run a large vessel with 6 people and repair it for the next episode...aaanyway, yeah, not all trekkies are obsessive, I'm definately not....I'm just up on my Star Trek trivia tongue.gif
acid_rain_child
Sorry to spam, but SPS, let's not get technical about sci fi being realistic. I mean, come on, Andromida (I'm ashamed to say I've watched an episode *spasm*) isn't any worse than Star Trek. And to be sure, we don't even know if it's realistic or not. I'm just sayin...
Tigersong
QUOTE (acid_rain_child @ Jun 5 2004, 07:33 PM)
Sorry to spam, but SPS, let's not get technical about sci fi being realistic. I mean, come on, Andromida (I'm ashamed to say I've watched an episode *spasm*) isn't any worse than Star Trek. And to be sure, we don't even know if it's realistic or not. I'm just sayin...

Naw, Andromeda defies the conventions of acifi realism A LOT more than does Star Trek. Well, if you excuse the GLARING MISTAKE that was Voyager. Plus, the storylines tended to be somewhat interesting, which is more than I can say for most of what I've seen with Andromeda...

But then, I'm a bit of a Trekkie myself. More of a Warsie, really, as long as you ignore Episodes 1 and 2...
Tigersong
QUOTE
"Oh and I suppose Elven doesn't have that same use? I suppose Tolkien is still alive to translate all that stuff he wrote in elvish for us? I can't wait till he comes out with his next book! [/sarcasm]"

*blink* *confused* (It's the last sentence that confuses me, really)


Uh... 'cause Tolkien is dead? And therefore couldn't write any more books?
Sir Psycho Sexy
QUOTE (Tigersong @ Jun 6 2004, 02:52 AM)
QUOTE (acid_rain_child @ Jun 5 2004, 07:33 PM)
Sorry to spam, but SPS, let's not get technical about sci fi being realistic. I mean, come on, Andromida (I'm ashamed to say I've watched an episode *spasm*) isn't any worse than Star Trek. And to be sure, we don't even know if it's realistic or not. I'm just sayin...

Naw, Andromeda defies the conventions of acifi realism A LOT more than does Star Trek. Well, if you excuse the GLARING MISTAKE that was Voyager. Plus, the storylines tended to be somewhat interesting, which is more than I can say for most of what I've seen with Andromeda...

But then, I'm a bit of a Trekkie myself. More of a Warsie, really, as long as you ignore Episodes 1 and 2...

Thank you geoff, but I'm not talking about which is more realistic, I'm coming more from a production values angle. When you watch an episode of star trek, especially Enterprise, it seems a lot less plasticy, to me at least. I don't know what happened with Voyager, the thing that seems to be with the newer Star Trek franchises, they get more established, both DS9 and Voyager sucked to begin with....actually, Voyager mostly sucked, the last episode was pretty fun though tongue.gif The war in DS9 made bloody good watching though...all the expensive CG space battles, I liked it...but anyway yeah.....waffling again
Ikemook
"Uh... 'cause Tolkien is dead? And therefore couldn't write any more books?"

Yes, I understand the sarcasm itself. I just didn't see what that last sentence had to do with Usagi's point. The first sentence was a reply to my main idea. The second sentence played off that. The third just seemed to shift direction. Maybe it was the sudden shift from a pair of negative sarcastic comments to a positive one...

Or maybe I just overanalyzed the damn thing.

*sighs*

On SciFi,

Personally, there are only two above average Star Trek series. The Next Generation, which was great (particle-of-the-week aspect aside), and Enterprise, which borders on "eh", except for occasional brillaint moments.

The DS9 battles were very cool, but the series itself was poor. Voyager...was Voyager.

Has anyone noticed an annoying tendency for non-Star Trek (or at least, non-Roddenberry Star Trek) SciFi series to just get stranger, and stranger, and stranger, ultimately sacrificing their better aspects for plain weirdness, and completely destroying the suspension of belief?

This specifically applies to those series that use humans predominantly with aliens, or at least a different variety of humans. Stargate SG1 is a great example. The first few seasons of this show were just incredible. But, starting around the time the US mysteriously built a giant spaceship to travel the stars with, the series just became too unrealistic to bear.

The cast is still good. It's just that the story, and some of the larger events, are bordering on silly. I mean, how did the US get the funding to build a spaceship? Or the friggin' knowledge? From what I understand, there was little alien help, so we somehow made leaps and bounds in technology (or at least, understanding alien technology) to not only build our on spaceship, but build it on another planet. And in complete secrecy. Without anyone noticing what must have been a rather massive money drain. It just seems too implausible, even for Stargate. And this is just the beginning. The show just kept getting odder and odder.

Is anyone else seeing this? Or am I just crazy? *_*

Maybe a better way to describe this effect is a gradual decline towards "epicness." SciFi series just keep wanting to get grander and grander, constantly raise the stakes some, and so end up bringing in all these crazy ideas that they just don't need.

-------------

On another note, if you all have the chance, pick up a copy of Firefly. It's an excellent SciFi series; in my opinion, it's the best there is. Granted, it's only 14 episodes long (Fox cancelled the show very early on), but given the time it would have definitely become a great.

David
Tigersong
QUOTE
"Uh... 'cause Tolkien is dead? And therefore couldn't write any more books?"

Yes, I understand the sarcasm itself. I just didn't see what that last sentence had to do with Usagi's point. The first sentence was a reply to my main idea. The second sentence played off that. The third just seemed to shift direction. Maybe it was the sudden shift from a pair of negative sarcastic comments to a positive one...


All he was saying was that Tolkien was dead, wrote a lot of stuff in Elven, and if we don't understand elven, we can't read those books. Therefore, it's just as useful as Latin, in that regard.

Plus, it's COOL to know artificial languages. Cool in the Geeky Way.

QUOTE
Maybe a better way to describe this effect is a gradual decline towards "epicness." SciFi series just keep wanting to get grander and grander, constantly raise the stakes some, and so end up bringing in all these crazy ideas that they just don't need.


Meh. They're all playing off the Space Opera genre. The more fantastic, the more weird, the more operatic, supposedly, the more people you can quickly hook in. Of course, it defeats the thinking audience.

Personally, some of my favourite sci-fi moments have come from Babylon 5 (if you ignore some of the bad acting, the writing for that show was amazing) and Farscape (which was like... scifi on drugs, at some points. biggrin.gif )

QUOTE
On another note, if you all have the chance, pick up a copy of Firefly. It's an excellent SciFi series; in my opinion, it's the best there is. Granted, it's only 14 episodes long (Fox cancelled the show very early on), but given the time it would have definitely become a great.


Joss Whedon is a genius, Fox is an idiot.
Ikemook
"Personally, some of my favourite sci-fi moments have come from Babylon 5 (if you ignore some of the bad acting, the writing for that show was amazing) and Farscape (which was like... scifi on drugs, at some points. )"

Sadly, I lack cable, and so haven't seen much of those two shows.

"Joss Whedon is a genius, Fox is an idiot."

No disagreement here.

David
{Gothic Angel}
QUOTE (Ikemook @ Jun 6 2004, 12:40 AM)
"Also, I believe that D&D has it's own variant of elvish, so knowing elvish doesn't necessarilly correspond to being a gamer geek for those of you who judge them, even though Gamer Geeks > all > elbow > people who make fun of gamers. "

Oh, for future reference (though I'm sure you're all aware of this already):

When you can speak Elvish and your DM can't, it's not a good idea to say your spells in Elvish when you cast them ^_~ Had someone almost try this once, not out of malice, but because she thought it'd be cool. And perhaps normally it would have been, if I had, ya know, been able to understand her.

On that note, I wasn't aware there was an actual D&D variant of Elvish. At least, one written out in full.

David

I love gamers happy.gif

My DM is younger and smaller than me and also my best mate so i can pretty much get away with things like that.
CommieBastard
QUOTE ({Gothic Angel} @ Jun 6 2004, 09:25 PM)
My DM is younger and smaller than me and also my best mate so i can pretty much get away with things like that.

DMs can get away with anything biggrin.gif Other gamers pissing you off? "Rocks fall, everyone dies." Problem solved!
DarkInferno
sci-fi on drugs++ </spam>
mooooooooooopo
I always manage to either piss off the DM or get the other gamers to notice things that are gonna really piss me off. A prime example is someone reminding everyone that the lift door had been blown open, cue me falling down a lift shaft and not actually dying, just being paralysed. My mate had a fun situation involving someone reminding the DM that vampires falling out of trees would be really lucky to avoid being staked. Somehow he survived all the way down the tree then tripped and landed on a branch or something...doh!
{Gothic Angel}
QUOTE (CommieBastard @ Jun 6 2004, 09:59 PM)
DMs can get away with anything biggrin.gif Other gamers pissing you off? "Rocks fall, everyone dies." Problem solved!

Exactly happy.gif

And yeah, Firefly is pretty good (from the one episode I've seen lol)
Galder Weatherwax's Hat
Hang on, girls play pen and paper RPGs? Why didn't anyone tell me, and me flaccid all night! wink.gif
Mr Fuzzy
They have been known to. Unfortunately in my experience they tend to be:

1) Olympic gold mentalists,

2) Not at all interested in me,

3) Most commonly, a combination of the previous options.

Arse stoats, there is just no hope!
spiffilicious05
I think that being able to speak elven would be cool, Klingon on the other hand just sounds too choppy and it's all about death and gore and other wierd stuff.

Plus elven just sounds cool.
Dreams On Hiatus
I never even knew about Klingon before this thread. And the word just looks geeky, so I guess I'll have to say that Klingon is geekier than Elven. Besides, I'm teaching myself to write and speak Elven. laugh.gif
{Gothic Angel}
Oi! Many girls including me play D&D. And we like guys who also play it, or are some sort of gamer anyway. I met one of my ex's through FRP tongue.gif He was such a geek.
jicama
where do i start?

QUOTE
which is more geeky?


look. they're both intricate languages that were made up by clever people to add spice to a particular sci-fi/fantasy universe. people thought they were cool and began learning them. they are basically the same in origin, so neither is really geekier than the other.

QUOTE
Trekkies frighten me.


*sigh*. it's not trekkies that frighten you, it's trekkie nerds. every fan group has its share of socially inept rabid fans. since star trek has been around for so long, it has gathered many of these. lotr has them too, they just aren't as visible because until recently they haven't had the commercial backing for conventions or a lot of merchandise.

and yes, i know a bit of klingon and my knowledge of star trek trivia is extensive, but i don't see how that's any more frightening than the people who memorize baseball
stats or who know a lot about anything that they find personally interesting. i'm a geek and proud of it!


QUOTE
I just don't understand why *-*


because it's fun! because it gives me a feeling of geek pride! because it gives me a mark of respect amoung other trekkies/lotr fans! because it makes watching the show/reading the books even more interesting!

QUOTE
voyager, stargate, enterprise, blah blah blah


voyager sucked, enterprise is good except for the excessive fan service, the dominion war was a grOk'n story arc, tng and tos are comfort food for the brain, never got into stargate, couldn't stand the acting on babylon long enough to notice the writing, farscape was refreshingly realistic (from a psychological standpoint), and yes, joss whedon is a genius.

QUOTE
Hang on, girls play pen and paper RPGs?


yes. yes they do. i'm a girl and i'm rather fond of ad&d. also, it was my mom that taught my brother and i how to roll a character. she was also the oe that taught us that 50 feet of rope, a collapsible stick and a flint box are always handy things to have in your pack. ...and that blowing on a horn that you find in a dungeon isn't a good idea, but that's another story.

QUOTE
Klingon on the other hand just sounds too choppy and it's all about death and gore and other weird stuff.


me, i like a good guttural language! great for cussing and giving orders in! and yes, there's a lot about blood and guts and such, but that's not the whole of it. klingons are (or would be if we lived in the star trek universe wink.gif ) a very passionate people. their songs are just as often about love, honour, and spirituality as they are about war and such.

but yes, elvish sounds prettier.
Greeneyes
QUOTE (jicama @ Jun 9 2004, 07:49 AM)
*sigh*. it's not trekkies that frighten you, it's trekkie nerds.

I always thought of trekkies as the obsessive ones, and regular fans as just Star Trek fans. Otherwise i'd have to think of everyone who likes Lord of the Rings as a ringie. I don't want to be a ringie.
gothictheysay
this is sort of off topic, but

I went to Middle Earth...

Damn I want that T-shirt tongue.gif

I suppose there's a difference between trekkies (normal obsessives) and trekkie nerds (the ones who start with the numbers like "The ship would go exactly this fast in Earth's atmosphere" or something) but I don't think I've seen a full episode of Star Trek unsure.gif
Sir Psycho Sexy
QUOTE (jicama @ Jun 9 2004, 08:49 AM)
QUOTE
Klingon on the other hand just sounds too choppy and it's all about death and gore and other weird stuff.


me, i like a good guttural language! great for cussing and giving orders in! and yes, there's a lot about blood and guts and such, but that's not the whole of it. klingons are (or would be if we lived in the star trek universe wink.gif ) a very passionate people. their songs are just as often about love, honour, and spirituality as they are about war and such.

i have to say, klingons aren't all about war and such, they have opera as well as folk song, their culture is based deeply in religion, ritual and so on so nuts to you! tongue.gif though the most polite greeting in klingon roughly translates to "what do you want?"

and yes, i do like klingons, they rock
CommieBastard
QUOTE (jicama @ Jun 9 2004, 07:49 AM)
yes. yes they do. i'm a girl and i'm rather fond of ad&d. also, it was my mom that taught my brother and i how to roll a character. she was also the oe that taught us that 50 feet of rope, a collapsible stick and a flint box are always handy things to have in your pack. ...and that blowing on a horn that you find in a dungeon isn't a good idea, but that's another story.

Oh, dear. Was it the one that summons chaotic evil warriors? I wish people wouldn't just piss around with things they find in dungeons, they keep getting killed. They shouldn't look into mirrors, either. Or read scrolls that suspicious NPCs give them that just might, just might have a Symbol of Death on them.

Me? A sadistic Dungeon Master? Nooo...
Tigersong
QUOTE (CommieBastard @ Jun 9 2004, 05:22 PM)
Oh, dear. Was it the one that summons chaotic evil warriors? I wish people wouldn't just piss around with things they find in dungeons, they keep getting killed. They shouldn't look into mirrors, either. Or read scrolls that suspicious NPCs give them that just might, just might have a Symbol of Death on them.

Me? A sadistic Dungeon Master? Nooo...

"You should know better than to pick up a duck in a dungeon."
- from Munchkin, a card game that parodies D&D and other tabletops, when you pick up the card entitled "Duck of Doom."

</spam>
CommieBastard
Hehehe...Randy Milholland illustrating one of the more disturbing Munchkin cards, the Redneck Tree.
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