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First: one should be self reliant to need to no help. Doesn't always work, but it should in any and all cases. That's one of the few things I actually liked from my studies of Ralph Waldo Emerson.

Second: I'm 16. Go me.

Third: Anger =/= angst. I'll be the first to admit that I have some rather serious anger management problems (I have rather serious anger management problems... there, I was the first to admit it,) along with some other issues yet to be dealt with. So yeah, psycho-analyze me up and down, I'm not sure I really care.

Fourth: See the first, but I felt I should add that fragility is pitiful and can only be overcome with fortifications.
Snugglebum the Destroyer
Fourth: See the first, but I felt I should add that fragility is pitiful and can only be overcome with fortifications.

I'm glad that you've got your head so sorted, so young. However, you have no empathy. You're arrogant. You're aggressive and you're playing devils advocate I feel.

I do not disagree with a lot of the points you have made. Knowing your age explains a lot to me. Big brave face for the world. Go you.

At 16, you really DO know everything. Apparently as you get older and dotty you lose that insight.

Thanks for reminding us.

Although... I may forget in a few hours or so...

I know I don't know everything, never claimed to. As is, I won't know everything (or anything for that matter) at 18, 21, 24, 30, 40, 50, or 100. However, I do I feel about this whole matter and my aforementioned posts are those feelings.

Snuggle, the problem with your argument is simply that I do empathize which is why I hate the way I do.
here, here!

Thank god for level minded people. I'm so tired of the 'suck it up' theory. I'm not saying that some people don't do it for attention -- but don't make it out to be that all are.

I mean Jaq is right - why would people go to great lengths to hide their cuts if they wanted to seek attention? Cutting is an illness, like cancer or pneumonia -- it's not something you just get over. It takes time, and some people never fully recover.


That is pretty much exactly what I was about to say. . .
Well see, Mike, the reason people need the help is because they *can't* overcome this themselves. Of course people should be able to help themselves, but they're usually at a stage where they can't if they're doing this to themselves. So to help them, we have other people help them to learn how to help themselves. Seee?
No. I don't.

A muscle can only grow stronger when it is torn down and rebuilt.
I've been away from the forum for a while and I was pretty shocked by this thread, not because of it's subject matter but because of the response.

I've made lots of friends through Matazone who've been kind, thoughtful and supportive which is why I found this thread so revolting!

This person is looking for advice and support, which some of you have given, what they don't need is your judgement!
They came to this forum, Sarah. They asked for help, were given it, to sOme extent. However, they have posted no response and thus this topic has spun into a debate. Don’t like it? Tough. Validate the other points of view, don’t just come in and say that it’s horrible (somehow, I know this post isn’t going to do well.)
QUOTE (PsychWardMike @ Sep 2 2004, 11:04 PM)
(somehow, I know this post isn’t going to do well.)

That's good, mike ... you're making progress wink.gif
Way to miss my point.
Way to miss my point

*nods* tongue.gif
*wanders into thread*

Y'know, for no reason at all, I'll start from the back and work my way to the front of the thread. Because.

"Don’t like it? Tough."

That wasn't needed, you know it wasn't needed, and it's just provocative and has no other point. Moving on.

"They came to this forum, Sarah. They asked for help, were given it, to sOme extent. However, they have posted no response and thus this topic has spun into a debate. Don’t like it? Tough. Validate the other points of view, don’t just come in and say that it’s horrible (somehow, I know this post isn’t going to do well.)"

'To some extent'? I think there was plenty of advice given. I'm not going to argue with you over the *fact* that the topic's spun into a judgmental debate (as debates sometimes are), as that's pretty obvious. Sarah's point is that it *shouldn't* have spun into a debate. In your words, way to miss her point (sorry, I know it's not needed, but I couldn't resist tongue.gif).

"A muscle can only grow stronger when it is torn down and rebuilt."

I'm going to assume that you're changing the phrase "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" and respond to that phrase as opposed to the one you used, simply because it's easier.

What does not kill you in no way necessarily makes you stronger. If you lose both your legs in an accident but survive, and are emotionally traumatized and scarred for life, you definitelly won't be any stronger for the experience. Sure, that's a bit extreme, but it helps show that, simply because something hurts you, doesn't mean it makes you any stronger. Tearing down a muscle and rebuilding it (which is, biologically, next to impossible with out technology. Just to point out) would probably damage the body much more than heal it (assuming you were doing it to fix a problem), all things considered.

Besides which, if you're tearing down a muscle and then rebuilding it to fix something wrong with it, wouldn't the excruciating pain of it being torn down offset the benefits of the rebuilding? Especially if you don't get help from others who can help you through the pain, and help rebuild the muscle (there, I finally matched your metaphor with a metaphorical point of my own, and not just a realistic one).

"one should be self reliant to need to no help."

I never would've guessed that you'd should be self-reliant to need no help from someone besides yourself! Your powers of observation never cease to amaze me. What're you still doing here, man? There are crimes to be solved! Go! Go!
"Doesn't always work, but it should in any and all cases."

I love contradictions. Don't you?

"Crying for help is just that - screaming into the darkness."

Since when was crying for help the same as screaming into the darkness? Since when did everyone dissapear when you turned off the lights? (joke, by the way, as I've no other response to this other than that is a relatively pointless metaphor)

"One must help one's self."

I'm not quite sure where you managed to pick up the idea that all cutting is a cry for help, especially since a rather large amount of people who cut hide the cuts either in places you wouldn't normally look or through excuses, but anyways....

One must help one's self to overcome one's problems (ok, I'm done using "one;" it's annoying me already). But, most of the time, you also need help from others if you want to overcome a problem serious enough to drive you to cutting. Why do you think that motivational groups, therapists, and the like are so used/sucessful/etc.? Sure, many people call them quacks/failures/liars/whatever, but, if they didn't produce results, they wouldn't be in buisness. Whether it's meds, therapists, or just friends and family, everyone (and yes, I'm going to use the blanket "everyone" here) with serious emotional problems *must* get some sort of outside help to overcome them.

That being said, you must also be willing to help youself if you want (or someone else wants) a problem to be fixed. On that, I agree with you.

"... I allotted for each case to be different - everyone is different and thus every story is different, however it has been my experience that a sickening majority of teenage cutting stems from a disillusioned state of mind because they have been efffectively brainwashed by Hot Topic and their peers."

Huh. Well, from my and those I know (which certainly is not the majority of people, obviously. But, as I can't speak for the entire world....) experiences, your experience is not the norm. The majority of people cut due to one of various problems, in the person's life (abuse, excessive drug (depending on which drug) / alchohol usage, etc.), emotional/mental problems (ex.: depression).

"As for Jaq - I was simply saying that a truly suicidal person will not go home, pop in a Nirvana/Linkin Park/Evanescence CD, light some candles, and cry while they cut themselves with tiny razor blades. That is attention whoring, whether they admit it or not."

Erm..... what? *How* is that attention whoring, unless they videotape it (and show the videotape to people to get attention) or something or have people watch (or talk on and on about it to friends/family), or perhaps show off your cuts at school or something? The CD, candles, and crying aren't in any way attention-whoring, unless any of the above is true, because it can't be used to get attention.

"And let me reiterate: my guess about this case is just as good as everyone else's. None of us have given any others reason to believe that they know him/her."

M-hm, but we're giving him/her advice on how to stop cutting, not saying that s/he's possibly attention-whoring, not actually suicidal (though s/he never actually said that), etc.

"If someone is truely suicidal, they would do it, not cut themselves."

That is absolutely, entirely untrue. I don't know what psychological studies you've been doing, but I suggest you get back to your books. A *very* large amount of people who end up committing suicide do cut, in many cases a very large amount, previously (I'm not going to find some link or statistic unless you ask). On the other hand, a large amount of the people who cut themselves do not end up committing suicide, but that's a different matter entirely.

"Cutting is a fleshwound; suicide is permanent."

And? Pain does release chemicals in your body, which (among other things) help people control suicidal urges (though that's probably not why they cut themselves, or at least the reason in their minds, but anyways...).

"The angsty teenagers I speak of know the difference, as they are in complete control - I've yet to see someone who has been cutting for a long time (and for attention) be rash enough to commit suicide."

Attaching "and for attention" to your statement defeats its purpose. You've been talking about how cutting is generally just a cry for attention. Now you're saying that you don't know anyone who's cut simply for attention who's committed suicide. And? The second point doesn't follow the first.

"But again - we DO NOT KNOW who this person is, their motives, or their style which means that EVERY WORD THAT WE SAY is speculation."

Except that we're not speculating over what the movies of this person are, nor their motives, nor their style. We're *trying* to offer advice.

"No, they do not need help. They need maturity and an epiphany. That's all."

So you just want to leave everyone who cuts to their own devices and wait for the ones who decide not to commit suicide to grow up? Or do you simply deny that therapists, as well as help from friends and family, help no one with emotional problems that drive them to cutting? And you also think that cutting is a sign of immaturity and never one of emotional or mental issues? I thought you said you studied psychology. I'd love it if you could show me a psychology source which says, "cutters do not need help" anywhere. Actually, *any* reputable source which says that would be fine.

"Angsty teenagers that cut themselves are seeking attention."

I'm not even going to comment on this, except re-state that I thought you said you studied psychology...

"They tell people they cut for some sort of shock value and the immediate attention they recieve thereafter."

Except that many of them hide their cuts, or explain them away.

"I have found that, of all the teenagers that cut themselves that I've met, about 1 in 15 actually had something wrong with them."

How can you tell, hrm?

"The rest went along with it, after convincing themselves that they belong to a certain clique (goth/emo, most often) and proceed to do so for acceptance."

Once again, how would you know? Or is this your psychological studying suddenly surfacing?

"It's not, for most cases that I've seen, a form or release, but a form of getting people to like them. That's not depression - it's just a case of an a teenager doing anything they can to get people to like them."

Same response as the previous two.

"Work out, make friends, do something, but just don't be a cancer on teenage (and all) society."

That last bit is offensive. Excessively so. Not only that, it's needless. *Why* did you feel the need to add it in? Was there any point in insulting the person who started this thread? Honestly (not that people haven't been insulting you, but I'm responding to your posts, not theirs, and only because I disagree with you).

However, all my responses being said, I doubt that the person coming here seeking help is genuine, simply because s/he hasn't stayed around to even read the responses (that's why I haven't responded to your comments *about* the person in question). On that, I agree with you. Say that this person is attention-whoring, however, I will not. Though it is quite possible.
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