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> Hitler is a Total Git, is it true?
SPEAKERfortheLOS...
post Jun 8 2005, 03:20 AM
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IT WAS HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!!

perfect music!

cant stop laughing!!!


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Mata
post Jun 8 2005, 12:46 PM
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biggrin.gif 'Glad you like it. I wasn't sure if I wanted to make it public or just something for friends. 'Nice to know I made the right choice!


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Sir Psycho Sexy
post Jun 8 2005, 03:20 PM
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yay! Dance Hitler, Dance!!

(that's a phrase I never thought I'd ever say)


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JimiJimi
post Jun 8 2005, 08:30 PM
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I just couldn't stop laughing when I saw that. That's probably the only time I'm ever gonna see a dictator dance.

I think it's just that he was such an evil menacing guy that makes it so hilarious... I hate Hitler as much as the next guy, but y'know.

That music makes it all the more hilarious. I don't want to offend anyone, I just thought that that was really funny, even if it was in bad taste...


Sorry if above post it rambling and repetitive, but I'm trying to post in between doing other things...


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Sir Psycho Sexy
post Jun 8 2005, 08:35 PM
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While I agree the things that Hitler did were terrible, it happened 60 years ago now and it's not like Mata was even condoning what was done by his command. To the contrary, he was mocking Hitler, he was taking a much hated an loathed figurehead and placing him in a ridiculous situation, it's the internet equivilent of putting him in stock and throwing rotten veg at him while pointing and laughing "haha, look at him now".


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I_am_the_best
post Jun 8 2005, 08:50 PM
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I'm Jewish but I just found it funny. laugh.gif But I guess, each to his own. Unfortunately I am music-less because I cannot be bothered to go turn on the speakers and have to move so many boxes. It's short and sweet. smile.gif


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Mata
post Jun 8 2005, 09:23 PM
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Obviously no harm was intended. I can certainly see that for some it is in dubious taste. While I can understand that in some aspects this appears to be a trivialisation of Hitler and his crimes, I also made sure that it was also serving as a reminder of what he did. He happily sent millions of Jews to their death. He also sent thousands of homo/bisexuals to exactly the same fate. If you ever see people using the pink triangle as a symbol of pride it is because that was the mark given to the gay/bi people by the regieme, in the same way that Jews were forced to wear the yellow star of David.

I would agree that it would have been over the line if the background wasn't there, but I wanted to have Auschwitz in the piece to keep these things fresh in the minds of people. It's too easy to forget the real horror of the Nazis when they seem to turn up constantly in science-fiction. This does play with that trivialisation, but I tried to balance it with the reality of what happened behind those gates.

I am also staunchly against Neo-Nazis. Anything, and I do mean anything that makes Hitler seem like more of a bastard, more stupid, more ridiculous, and less like a reasonable person to want to follow I think can only work for the best. We can't forget the past, for our own good, but we must never forget that we are far from defeating the hatred that brought him to power. If I can help people take Hitler as a leader less seriously while reminding people of what he did then that's great. If I can make people laugh while reminding them what a wanker he was then that's even better.

I'm sorry if this seems in bad taste OTA, I understand your view. I hope you understand my intentions. I encourage people to question things like this because it's only through questions that we keep these topics alive in our minds. We must never repeat the mistakes of the past, by making Hitler look stupid I hope that this is a tiny pebble added to an eventual landslide that wipes the idiocy of Neo-Facism from the planet. I wanted to make people laugh, but I want them to never forget the subject too. I'm considering doing one of Mao, and possibly other dictators. There are many things from history that should never be repeated.


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CommieBastard
post Jun 9 2005, 08:34 PM
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That looks interesting, OTA smile.gif

For the interested: film / US link for book, UK link for book.

[I've editted the book links to be ones that gives this site money if you use them - Mata]

[oooh, sneaky, didn't think of that - Commie]


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Mata
post Jun 9 2005, 11:45 PM
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I think it's important to keep figures alive in our imaginations rather than just in history books. It's too easy to see people like Hitler as distant figures that could never have any influence on our times. That book does sound interesting, I might track it down sometime. People really are very willing to be evil to each-other when they feel that there is an authority who is responsible for their actions.


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artist.unknown
post Jun 10 2005, 06:59 PM
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If it were anyone but you, Mata, I might think it was a bit iffy. It's a matter of context; on Matazone, it is quite clearly satire.

I think that it's terrifically amusing, especially the music. I had a giggle. Yay Mata!

Now we just need one of a certain present leader given to "pretzel-related" accidents.


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Quoth(The Raven)
post Jun 11 2005, 02:39 AM
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Haven't seen the animation, yet, but i wanted to say this about the bad taste angle: Evil feeds on fear and hatred, and thrives on neglect. The only way to fight Evil is with LOve and Laughter, and to never, ever forget...


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Usurper MrTeapot
post Jun 11 2005, 11:22 PM
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But if you say that there are so many people with lifestles people don't approve of then it would be a lot harder to cause another holocaust. One of the reasons why the extermination camps weren't shut down was because no one outside of the occupied borders knew that it was happening.

Some attempted holocausts since then have practically gone un noticed by a lot of people these days, for example the Ruandan massacre ten years ago cut the population by half. Remembering through love and laughter isn't going to help, I think that it would cause them to be self centred in their joy and forget the outside world rather than aid it. Knowledge over laughter.

Anyway, that was a pretty funky loop Mata.


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Quoth(The Raven)
post Jun 12 2005, 01:39 AM
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Acknowledge evil, oppose it, but never let it change you, or what you do. 911 was an example of that. If we had let that event cause us to live in fear, we would have done exactly as the terrorists wanted. Never give Evil what it wants/needs... and one of the things it needs is to be taken seriously, for that is the way to gain followers. So laugh at evil. Hold a mirror up to it, and show how pointless and wrong it is. Honor the victims and the heroes, but laugh at the villains as the total clowns they really are...


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Usurper MrTeapot
post Jun 12 2005, 12:09 PM
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Who actually said that the Terrorists want us to live in fear, I've only ever heard our world leaders say that? We name those who strike out against us terrorists because thats what our leaders call them, whereas they are striking out at us in retaliation for what our countries are doing to them.


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depressed lonely...
post Jun 13 2005, 03:47 AM
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OTA I personally think that you're being childish. You're holding a chip on your shoulder about somthing that happened 60 years ago to people who you're only connected to via a religious choice (which would be the same as me having a hissy fit every time someone made a bad joke about a goth) obviously Mata doesn't suport or condone the killing of innocent people or Hitlers behavior.

However I can't help but admire his abillity (not him) to brain wash people and then get them to follow through on such huge and drastic actions on such an enormous scale for so long. It's an amazing accomplishment showing and amazing level of control and brilliance if you get around the absolutly abominable things he did/enabled.


If you're offended by this post PM me


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CommieBastard
post Jun 13 2005, 08:21 AM
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QUOTE (depressed lonely crazy person @ Jun 13 2005, 04:47 AM)
You're holding a chip on your shoulder about somthing that happened 60 years ago to people who you're only connected to via a religious choice
*


Considering the tendency of Judaism to be passed down to one's children (remember that it's an ethnicity as well as a religion), I'd imagine that OTA may well be connected to the victims of the Holocaust by blood as well.


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Mata
post Jun 13 2005, 11:26 AM
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DCLP, I don't agree with you on this one.

I think it's right that people should question the use of Hitler in modern culture. It is one of those thngs that we need to keep track of. That OTA is Jewish doesn't really factor, for me, into the validity of the questions; they are the sort of thing we all should ask. That she is Jewish only emphasises her reasons for continuing to do this.

Don't forget that the persecution of Jews is not something that is in any way only related to Nazism. It has been going on for millenia. Shakespeare and Marlowe wrote plays that clearly reflect a dominant discourse of casual anti-Semitism that were completely accepted. The dehumanisation of Jews continues, just as the other victims of Hitler's senseless hatred still suffer from prejudice (non-caucasians, gays, bisexuals, those with physical or mental disabilities). It is right to continue to stay vigilant about the glossing of history. Personally, I know my animation was close to the line, but I think I remained on the right side of it. I welcome people questioning my decisions because it forces me to think about what I make more carefully.

I do agree though, Hitler did do some astonishing things. He had a team of people with him who motivated and reformed a country from the depths of recession to being very nearly capable of taking over the whole world. He made millions of people die and still managed to make the population either not notice or not care. Nazism is among the highest demonstrations of the maleability of the human spirit when faced with powerful psychosis. It's awesome (in the true sense of the word) and for this is an even greater warning because the scale of the things achieved.


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Mata
post Jun 13 2005, 01:38 PM
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I wasn't ganging up on you. I was agreeing with your right to criticise. Did you miss this?

QUOTE
I think it's right that people should question the use of Hitler in modern culture. [...] It is right to continue to stay vigilant about the glossing of history. Personally, I know my animation was close to the line, but I think I remained on the right side of it. I welcome people questioning my decisions because it forces me to think about what I make more carefully.


It is also defending your right to disagree with my reasons for making the animation (highlighting that he was a bastard while still entertaining people and hopefully making him and the neo-facist movement look like the stupid, cold-hearted bastards that they are). If this was only about the holocaust then I would agree that the animation is in bad taste, but Hitler is still idolised by people around the world, and we have to actively undermine their attempts at revisionist history, such as holocaust denial.

This is quite the opposite of ganging up on you for having an opinion. I welcome it, even if I don't fully agree with you. You may notice that two mods have defended your views since DCLP posted.


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depressed lonely...
post Jun 13 2005, 03:10 PM
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QUOTE
Considering the tendency of Judaism to be passed down to one's children (remember that it's an ethnicity as well as a religion), I'd imagine that OTA may well be connected to the victims of the Holocaust by blood as well.


And I'm connected by blood to a significant chunk of Ireland but I don't go around hating prodestants .
And another chunk of my familly is Scottish yet I don't hate the English posibly because the other chunk of my familly IS English in which case I don't go around having a go at Romans.
Just about everyone has familly heritage dating at some point to somone who was opressed or killed by somone else at some time, death happens and continuing to take it as personal insult when somone talks about a very famous and major influence to world history is at best silly and a waste of time. Continuing to have strong feelings of anything towords a loony whos been dead for 60 years is a little bit of overkill really.
The loop doesn't trivialise anything it's just a daft idea that was buzzing around somones head and which happens to be mildly amusing.


Yet again if this post offends you PM me cos I don't mind elaborating on my opinion


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depressed lonely...
post Jun 13 2005, 03:13 PM
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Don't I feel loved I eopress one opinion in a blue moon and get bashed on it even when I try to expreess it well.

Also
QUOTE
Sorry again, I didnt notice that you were DISAGREEING with him. 


HIM??????


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Mata
post Jun 13 2005, 06:41 PM
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OTA: No problem.

DLCP: I see what you're getting at more clearly now. Thanks for explaining more fully. I agree that there is no point in bearing grudges about things that were perpetrated a long time ago, but equally, to take one of your examples, we don't make jokes about the Protestant/Catholic killings.

I think OTA's objection was that it seemed I was making a joke about the death of millions of people, which would be in very bad taste. If my intentions were as simple as 'look at Hitler dancing! Hasn't he got a light side?' then that would have been bad. I put him in front of Auschwitz because I wanted to make it appear that he was cheerful about killing millions, reinforcing my point that is the title of the page 'Hitler is a total git'. He was a complete bastard, and no doubt about it. By animating his glee in a humourous way it evokes a very dark humour. The comedy comes from the seriousness of Hitler and his actions, the danger he poses, and the actions that he has done.

The 'joke' is based on his glee at what he has done in Auschwitz, but I don't think we can progress at all as a society while we still demonise Hitler. What we have to do is realise he was psychotic. He was a bastard. We need to mock him and all the ideas he stood for. While he is still considered simply as 'evil' then he will still attract followers. Sadly there are people out there who are attracted to this kind of dark side of life, and the more stupid we can make Hitler look then the less appealing this aspect of the political world seems. We don't need to make him evil, we need to make him stupid. The joke was in trying to make Hitler look ridiculous, not about the deaths of millions. It was made to try and preserve the future, so the meaning is very much about today.

I think the end justifies the means in this case, which I think is DLCP's point, but I can fully understand that OTA might feel otherwise. Like I say, I can accept both sides of the argument here. Criticism is healthy. You both have a different view on this, but that's fine. We don't have to agree on everything, that's just what makes the world more diverse, and is precisely the way to defeat the kind of stupidity that Hitler stood for. You both agree that Hitler was a twat. Your freedom to disagree about this animation actually unites you in the cause of preventing things like Nazism from coming back. Diversity is the enemy of facism, so keep it up, both of you. Disagree, but at all times keep it polite.

Actually I'm very pleased that there has been a debate about this. It's good to keep these things fresh in our minds.


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