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> Suicide, Don't worry not about to top myself but.
bryden42
post Feb 20 2006, 09:19 PM
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A very long time ago my grandfather killed himself, shot himself in the head with a shotgun to be precise, the guy had just had 2 heart attacks and was left with more limited mobility and facing a full smoking ban after 50 odd years of enjoying 30 a day.so anyway I've been a pragmatist for most of my life (although oppinionation has started to set into my older mind) and at the time i figured that was his choice. Just recently i've had a think about it and am starting to wonder whether it was a brave choice or a cowards way out. Any thoughts guys? either in this case or in the world of suicide in general?


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Daria
post Feb 20 2006, 09:37 PM
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I think this will be a difficult topic for me to comment on as my ideas might differ so much from other people's. I appologise if I seem insensitive or non-understanding.
My friend's mum shot herself towards the end of last summer. She was depressed, had gone in and out of hospital because of it and in my friend's eyes- she had been released too early.
I was thinking at the time- if she loved her kids so much, why would she put them through the pain they have had to endure because of her choice to end her life?
The same goes for the dad of a friend of my brother's. He gassed himself in his car, and a friend of his son found him whilst doing his paper-round. The guy's dad had split up with his wife, and he had decided to continue to live with him and stay in the area. Basicaly, his dad was all he had in this area, family wise, and even he left him. The poor guy didn't finish his GCSEs, he hasn't been able to hold down a job, and he still gets bouts of depression because of it. I had the same thoughts here- if you really love your family (as he did with his son) how could you be THAT selfish to leave him? To ruin his life and give him a complete sense of loss for the rest of his life?
But then again, when you are depressed do you really think in a clear enough way to think about your loved ones?
Lastly- I have a friend who has an eating disorder, has had clinical depression and still gets times of it, self harms, has been sexualy abused (not as serious as it sounds but she still needs to sort things out in her head about it), and is 18. She has tried to commit suicide twice, once pretty recently; just on overdosing on painkillers, medication and anything else she could find in her medicine cupboard. She has alot of very caring friends- she could tell us anything and with her we would try to sort things out. But she still feels so alone sometimes, so worthless that she doesn't want to be on the world. "If she isn't here, everything would be easier". This is utter bollocks (excuse my language) and she has been told so, in floods of tears, over and over and over again. She knows how much pain she would put others in if she did commit suicide, and yet she still holds it open as an option.

I think what I am trying to say is that there is no circumstance where, in my eyes, suicide can be gloryfied as something brave or heroic. It is just an easy way out which hurts people something terrible.


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trunks_girl26
post Feb 20 2006, 10:58 PM
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I think while it's easy to dismiss people wanting to commit suicide as just being cowardly and selfish, I think seeing it from their angle changes things for you.

Imagine yourself living, seeing yourself day in and day out as a total and complete failure. Every choice you make is the wrong choice and just makes everyone else's life worse. Every stranger on the street somehow knows what a failure you are and can see right into you, they give you dirty looks, or at least you imagine they would if they really know who you are.

Your closest friends, family, have to hear your 'whining' every day, and for some reason in your mind you think that they're annoyed by you; that they're sick of hearing you bitch and moan about your problems when they have their own problems to worry about. So, you decide to hold everything back from them, to conciously remain happy in their presence because in your mind, you're trying to spare them from the misery you believe you're causing them just by merely existing.

Now, try feeling these things every day, all the time, and see how long you can hold out. You start to deteriorate internally, your friends and family can't help you because the person would feel selfish asking for help. Every step you take, things seem to crumble beneath you. You grow weary of holding back a dam of emotion that you can't even name, let alone deal with.

So, you decide to stop dealing with it, and decide that the best course of action is to take yourself away from all the pain you seem to cause yourself and others. You decide to end your life.

No, suicide is neither heroic nor cowardly. It is, in the mind of the person wanting to commit suicide, the best course of action. And how do I know this, you wonder? It's because I've battled with these feelings on and off, and have come very close to suicide a few times.


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Phyllis
post Feb 21 2006, 01:24 AM
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QUOTE (trunks_girl26 @ Feb 20 2006, 02:58 PM)
No, suicide is neither heroic nor cowardly. It is, in the mind of the person wanting to commit suicide, the best course of action.
*

That pretty much sums up my feelings on it. People who commit suicide are just people who, for some unfortunate reason, have become incapable of seeing any other end to their own pain. I don't think it's either selfish or generous, though many people who do commit suicide genuinely appear to have believed that their loved ones would be much better off without them.

How can someone who thinks they are worthless see what a devastating effect their death will have? They don't think they're important enough for anyone to really care...even parents, children, best friends. They don't see themselves as others see them.

I don't think it's an "easy" way out, either. I think it's nothing more than the last resort of someone who cannot see any other possibilities. You think it would be easy to take your own life? Think for a minute about what is involved with that.

Those who most often succeed at committing suicide almost never leave a note. They give little if any signs beforehand. They don't threaten people with it constantly...they just...do it. Then afterwards the people who loved them are just incredibly shocked and trying to make sense of it all. Those who talk about doing it all the time obviously need help, but they really rarely do it and probably just want someone to tell them not to. They want someone to tell them how wonderful and loved they are and how everything will get better soon. If it were the easy way out, your friend would have done it already, Daria.


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PsychWardMike
post Feb 21 2006, 01:30 AM
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"There are no beautiful suicides
Only cold corpses with shit in their pants."

Didn't read the topic. Don't know if this is even relevant, but there you go.


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Phyllis
post Feb 21 2006, 01:38 AM
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QUOTE (PsychWardMike @ Feb 20 2006, 05:30 PM)
"There are no beautiful suicides
Only cold corpses with shit in their pants."

Didn't read the topic.  Don't know if this is even relevant, but there you go.
*

Here's a helpful thought: reading topics before you reply to them is useful. That way you are saved from saying something that has already been said, or worse...something that is idiotic.

Not relevant either, but there you go.


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trunks_girl26
post Feb 21 2006, 03:24 AM
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QUOTE (candice @ Feb 20 2006, 08:24 PM)
Those who talk about doing it all the time obviously need help, but they really rarely do it and probably just want someone to tell them not to.  They want someone to tell them how wonderful and loved they are and how everything will get better soon.  If it were the easy way out, your friend would have done it already, Daria.
*


My sister had a friend who was like that, and it was horrible. She used to call my sister and her other friends and get my sister completely worked up to the point of hysterics. It was a horrible time for her as well as my family.

Daria: Is your friend seeing a therapist or attempting to help herself out at all? Clinical depression significantly raises the 'drive' (forgive me, I blanked out at a better word) to commit suicide, and once a person attempts suicide, that person is 23 times more likely to attempt it again. If she's not seeing a professional, I would urge her to do so.


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Mata
post Feb 21 2006, 11:28 AM
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I have a slightly different view on the topic. I agree for the most part that suicide is either pointless (breaking up with a partner is traumatic, but there are other people in the world) or cowardly (facing huge bills or imprisonmnet), but other times I think it can be justified. Such cases I think are in times of very severe suffering or terminal illness.

One of the few cases of heroic suicide would be Lawrence Oates on Scott's trip to the arctic. When he knew that there were not enough provisions for the whole team to live he said 'I'm going outside. I may be some time', stepped out of the tent into the deadly cold, and walked away. He saved the lives of others with his own sacrifice. I guess you could argue that he died saving the lives of others, so it differs from suicide (which is typically a selfish act), but he still deliberately killed himself.

For me it's about the balance of suffering. If the suffering of others around you will be greater than your own then it is selfish, but if your own pain or suffering is so extreme that it outweighs that of others, and particularly if it will result in death anyway, then I can understand it.


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Daria
post Feb 21 2006, 06:09 PM
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QUOTE (trunks_girl26 @ Feb 21 2006, 04:24 AM)
QUOTE (candice @ Feb 20 2006, 08:24 PM)
Those who talk about doing it all the time obviously need help, but they really rarely do it and probably just want someone to tell them not to.   They want someone to tell them how wonderful and loved they are and how everything will get better soon.  If it were the easy way out, your friend would have done it already, Daria.
*


My sister had a friend who was like that, and it was horrible. She used to call my sister and her other friends and get my sister completely worked up to the point of hysterics. It was a horrible time for her as well as my family.

Daria: Is your friend seeing a therapist or attempting to help herself out at all? Clinical depression significantly raises the 'drive' (forgive me, I blanked out at a better word) to commit suicide, and once a person attempts suicide, that person is 23 times more likely to attempt it again. If she's not seeing a professional, I would urge her to do so.
*


She isn't seeing a therapist, and at times I sometimes wonder whether it is all a plea for attention. On the other hand- what if she did go through with it? We have all urged her to see a professional, and she has before but it didn't go too well. They did something which lost her trust and now she doesn't feel as though she could trust another one.
I don't think that she would ever truely go through with it- it just seems more like an extreme way of self harming.

I knew my post would come across the wrong way- I can understand, from thier point of view that things must have felt pretty damn [expletive] for them to go through with it. I was just saying what I felt from an outsider's point of view.


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little_bear
post Feb 24 2006, 01:12 AM
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Just a quick point I'd like to make.

Ultimately, and rather ironically, if you wish to spare your friends and family this percieved hurt you cause them, you will, in your final act, hurt them in a way you couldn't even begin to imagine.

Just my two cents.


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Phyllis
post Feb 24 2006, 04:35 AM
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QUOTE (little_bear @ Feb 23 2006, 05:12 PM)
Ultimately, and rather ironically, if you wish to spare your friends and family this percieved hurt you cause them, you will, in your final act, hurt them in a way you couldn't even begin to imagine.
*

Too true. Doubt the person who is thinking people would be better off without them realizes that at the time, unfortunately. sad.gif


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Astarael
post Feb 24 2006, 06:59 PM
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Certainly. When a person thinks that they're making things horrible for their family just by being there and making mistakes, they likely don't think that anyone will miss them or mourn for them, even when their family and friends would be truly devestated.


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believe
post Feb 25 2006, 06:23 PM
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I've been suicidal and understand some of that place. I still call it selfish. Understandably selfish, but selfish all the same. Cowardly? Sometimes. If you've tried to get help and treatment and its all failed again and again, I'd be more sympathetic. Living in constant pain is hard. Leaving everyone you love because something bad happened? Generally cowardly. Like people, situations are individual. The times when you're the sickest are ironically the times when its the hardest for you to help yourself. I understand that better than most and its a major factor in why my life is where it is. In the end? Its still a choice. You fight for your life or you don't. You give in and die or struggle on and live. I'm not trying to trivialize what I've been through and so many others have died from. Your own personal hell is slightly difficult to leave through. Its just still a choice at the end.


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Cassidy
post Feb 28 2006, 04:23 PM
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It is impossible to be objective when you are attempting suicide....if you have got to the stage where you are looking down the barrel of a shotgun then you self worth and self essteam are at such a low level that you could not possibly imagine that your death will have such a negitive effect on those around you who love and care for you....
For those here who self harm...how much courage does it take to cut or burn or break or scratch....( and I do not believe that SH leads to or suggests suicide)
how much courage does it take to pull the trigger...I would put forward that it requires a huge amount of courage.....
Most of western society abhours suicide and most of us have been socialised that it is wrong,bad,cowardly etc.....
Bottom line ...if some one is in such a bad place that suicide seems to be the only viable option then 1....they are not in a fit state of mind to make rational choices
2.....no one who has not been there in their place is in anyway in a position to judge...
just my two pennies worth...
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Saratina
post Mar 12 2006, 02:07 AM
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I've heard it said that suicide becomes an option in one's mind when pain exceeds resources for coping with pain.

To some extent I'd say that's true; however, I really doubt that the majority of people who attempt it are really that short of coping mechanisms. Suicide is a self-centered action and something that should not even be considered an option.

There comes a point when you really make the shift and realize that people DO care, and that your threats and attempts have only made things worse. Honestly up until that point, it appears to be reasonable, logical, and even noble or brave.

I don't think it's something you can really slap a black-and-white label on.


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Erin
post Mar 13 2006, 12:40 PM
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suicide is ..not good. someone i knew pretty well took that route..and..well..it ruins everyones lives. thanks to that ..i ended up breaking up with my boyfriend..becuz the suicide affected him way more than me, and he was acting really messed up to me around that time. i couldnt stand it anymore, so..well..i left him. he told me..if i leave..he would do the same as the person i know who killed themself..and honestly, no one is going to threat me like that.. so now its over.

anyhow..suicide is very bad, it affects everyone in your life. if yyou are well known ..then it is like a domino effect. ive tried it a couple times..but thankfully it never was successful. anyhow,...lifes worth living, even when it gets bad, things will start to look up.


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