Vegetarianism Vs Meat Eating Options

[Witless]

Thought this might help you all understand my personal thoughts on the subject.

[Pikasyuu]

i never feel guilty eating chicken or cow because both of those animals are pretty stupid in my experience.

I hate this argument. Because they are stupid according to you, they have no sense of an unpleasant life and therefore it is justifiable that they have an unpleasant life - unpleasant being a mild, mild term? With that logic, nobody should care about fish either. Sigh.

[WeeJ]

This thread reminds me of a t-shirt belonging to my brother in law....

"I love animals. They're delicious"

Not an actual opinion, but funny none the less.

I for one love eating meat. Cooking is a passion of mine and I believe in cooking good quality, free range meat. When I can afford it. I generally try to buy free range eggs and organic produce as much as I can, but budget dictates these days I'm afraid.

[vicrawr]

I prefer meat to all other foods.

[Faerieryn]

Another thing to think about. If the world was to bit by bit become vegetarian and meat was no longer required, would we see wild cows and pigs running around the countryside? I think not...

[Daria]

I'm drunk. But drunk logic says: stfu. Are there wild ones there now? No. Are there wolves? No. Should we start eating wolves? No. Well maybe, but you'd have to shave them first.

[Hobbes]

http://www.noob.us/humor/vegetarians-from-...-point-of-view/

^Saw this, and reminded me of this thread.

[VVes]

I consider myself am omnivore, I will eat almost anything that's biologically edible, well maybe not bugs, but I have eaten flesh of a few livestock and then some, I don't mind the veggies except the fact that I loath cauliflower and any iron rich greens, they taste like blood to me, much worse than the reaction most people get from smelling ground garlic, vampires?, anyway... I love the smoky smell of grilled meat!

We live in a world that gives us choice , unfortunately this also produces a sinful amount of waste, and overeating, or the opposite is also true, not eating at all.

A few centuries back there was no choice, you had to earn your food and if you couldn't fend for yourself, hunt or grow what you needed, that was it.

Religion for food. Imagine that.

[Daria]

I'm drunk. But drunk logic says: stfu. Are there wild ones there now? No. Are there wolves? No. Should we start eating wolves? No. Well maybe, but you'd have to shave them first.

So, I think I know what I was trying to get at whilst drunk...

There aren't cows and pigs in the wild anymore in the UK. Not having them in farms wouldn't mean that they would suddenly go extinct because they aren't there in the wild in the first place. There were a few breeds indigenous to the UK, but the current pig as we know it was one bred from a Chinese breed, hundreds of years ago. Just as we don't have wolves in the UK, or big cats, or certain kinds of birds, we also don't have wild cattle or pigs (except in certain, much more rural areas). As for the world in general: well, there are natural food chains. Humans, through development of society and farming methods, have screwed around with the food web and it's all unbalanced: hence why fishing cod is such a bad thing (they are predators). Note how most of the animals we eat are herbivores: predators are much more easily over hunted/ fished as they take longer to reproduce and repopulate. If we as a human race were vegetarian, then the food web would (over a few hundred years) get back to a more balanced state. Having said that, we have managed to ruin many ecologies as it is, and no amount of stopping what we're doing will bring it back to what it should be- positive restructuring would need to occur and species bred and re-introduced.

Sorry for the stfu, Ryn- however, your arguement is one of the most common and most annoying ones you get from people either taking the piss or mocking vegetarians, or from people who just haven't sat and thought about what they're saying. Not that you're from either group! It just gets a little tedious if you've heard the same joke repeated billions of times over a decade

[Witless]

As for the world in general: well, there are natural food chains. Humans, through development of society and farming methods, have screwed around with the food web and it's all unbalanced: hence why fishing cod is such a bad thing (they are predators). Note how most of the animals we eat are herbivores: predators are much more easily over hunted/ fished as they take longer to reproduce and repopulate. If we as a human race were vegetarian, then the food web would (over a few hundred years) get back to a more balanced state. Having said that, we have managed to ruin many ecologies as it is, and no amount of stopping what we're doing will bring it back to what it should be- positive restructuring would need to occur and species bred and re-introduced.

To be honest I have never heard a good definition of "natural" when used in the context of natural food cycles that didn't seem at best paper thin and flaky. Normally what people mean by natural is "what it would be like if humans weren't involved in it" or sometimes the more forgiving "humans involvement in it doesn't effect the cycle to a degree where it's any different from if humans weren't involved". Those things are fine and dandy until the population of the world gets taken into account. I think it's much more helpful to think about things in terms of finding a new balance in which people are generally happy with the state of the environment. That to me sounds like a more realistic goal.

It seems more "natural" to me to find a new balance taking humans consideration than simply try to revert all ecological systems back to a pre-human state. When humans aren't involved it's certainly what happens. The balance of animals in any area of the world shift and change as new animals evolve and out compete older models. In the human case we perhaps are a little too efficient. Thankfully we came with big built in brains which should be helpful in figuring our way out of our self dug pit (hopefully.) But I certainly think a new balance is a better goal to work towards than simply resurrecting the pre-human status quo.

[Miss-Smiley]

I eat meat as I love how it tastes! I try cosume less red meat though as its not good to consume lots of it. I think every food group should be ate in small propotions.

[leopold]

I have, on the odd occasion, been in the position to be able to try many different types of animal produce over the years. But for me, nothing tops a bacon butty!

If we as a human race were vegetarian, then the food web would (over a few hundred years) get back to a more balanced state. Having said that, we have managed to ruin many ecologies as it is, and no amount of stopping what we're doing will bring it back to what it should be- positive restructuring would need to occur and species bred and re-introduced.

Daria, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Whilst I agree that we do unbalance the planet's natural ecosystem for our own ends (such as destroying species when creating grazing land for cattle, etc.) I also doubt that humans becoming vegetarian would help anything get back to normal. With six billion people on the planet eating nothing but vegetables, we'd have to create a lot more land for crop growing, which in turn would expose other species to extinction. Plus, all these uneaten herbivores would become competition, directly or indirectly, for our own food supply - not that a cow would eat a carrot, but I'm sure it'd make a sizeable mess to a carrot plantation if left unattended - and as such we'd have to kill them in order to protect our food stocks.

Then there's the small matter of the natural predators of herbivores. Probably not a massive issue in other countries, but in the UK there are very few naturally wild predators left that could take out anything bigger than a chicken as we've already slaughtered the UK wolf population some centuries before. To reintroduce the wolf to control the cow, pig and sheep population would be to endanger our very existence (as we too would be prey to a wolf), so I can't see that happening.

And on top of that, what about leather? Or wool? Or down? Do we intend to leave naked geese in the wild, or strip live cows of their hide? And how do we catch wild sheep? And if we decide to not use these either, then how do we stay warm?

I just have the feeling that trying to change something as sizeable as the habits of one of the largest and fastest growing species on the planet would do more harm than good, which is why Utopia will never be more than a nice idea. Shame, that.

[Daria]

Plus, all these uneaten herbivores would become competition, directly or indirectly, for our own food supply - not that a cow would eat a carrot, but I'm sure it'd make a sizeable mess to a carrot plantation if left unattended - and as such we'd have to kill them in order to protect our food stocks.

That's just the thing: there wouldn't be all these uneaten herbivores. You'd be surprised how crap farm animals are at reproducing by themselves, and they wouldn't just run around unattended.

I now have the mental images of pigs to fat to mount one another to reproduce. It's a funny, if sad, image.

[elphaba2]

First of all, I'm not in favor of the whole world being veggie, mostly because it's wildly impractical. But I wanted to address a coupla points, if that's kosher.

With six billion people on the planet eating nothing but vegetables, we'd have to create a lot more land for crop growing, which in turn would expose other species to extinction.

Cows eat a lot more plants than people. One two-ton animal requires a good deal more plants (and space on which plants grow) than your general dude. And what's funny is that cows're mostly being fed "people plants" right now--corn and such, when their stomachs are DESIGNED to eat the plants human's can't (ie, grass and other highly fibrous material). So well we'd have to drastically shift the types of crops we sow (corn for every meal is neither appetizing or particularly nutritious), there's a likely chance we could produce an adequate amount of vegetables to feed the world.

Now, pigs, which can eat garbage--there's a thought. They're raised by the Zabaleen outside of Cairo, who sort trash for a living, and sold to Copts and other non-Muslim Egyptians. Dunno how good they taste (meat-eatin' types always seem to get their panties in a bunch about grass-fed this and bottle-fed that) but the prospect of eating an animal raised off of our offal is super-efficient and pretty dope for the planet. And it was done for years and years and years, so, um, there's that.

To reintroduce the wolf to control the cow, pig and sheep population would be to endanger our very existence (as we too would be prey to a wolf), so I can't see that happening.

We ain't prey to no wolves! They've been successfully reintroduced to many areas which share human populations, and the out-of-control populations of more toothsome & catchable herbivores have more than satisfied them. Unless we're wandering around in bands like our hunter-gatherer ancesters, ain't no wolf gonna nom no people when there are sheep and foxes and geese and deer to eat.

And on top of that, what about leather? Or wool? Or down? Do we intend to leave naked geese in the wild, or strip live cows of their hide? And how do we catch wild sheep? And if we decide to not use these either, then how do we stay warm?

There's a staggering amount of artificial fiber out there! Think polarfleece, made of old plastic--warm, water-wicking and 100% fake. We absolutely have no need for animal fabrics any more, for comfort or practicality, but people like the way they look & feel & that's that.

I just have the feeling that trying to change something as sizeable as the habits of one of the largest and fastest growing species on the planet would do more harm than good, which is why Utopia will never be more than a nice idea. Shame, that.

My thoughts exactly. But I am excited to see how this business will unfold, if I'll be alive for any of it. It seems as though we're rapidly cycling towards crescendo as far as exhausting resources goes, and a drastic change like the ones approaching demands a drastic response. Hoo-ah!

[leopold]

Elph, as someone who suffers from allergies, I prefer man-made fibres in terms of keeping my sinuses happy. However, I find most man-made fibres don't hold a candle to wool for sheer warmth, and those that do work end up really bulky or heavy. I suppose cotton could be a good way to go, but there again if we need the farming space to grow eats, what would happen to the plantations? Would they expect to turn over cotton fields for growing grapes or melons or such like? And what about coffee?? Oh, no, this Utopia sounds like hell on earth!

I'm still of the opinion that we are omnivorous for a reason. I've no idea what that reason might be, but I'm open to suggestion. In fact, I'd be an open ear for any rationale for the existence of any of what goes on on this planet. But insofar as the argument goes, we were designed to eat a mixture of meat and vegetables, so in my opinion this is what we should be doing.

And if we cut away this veneer of discussion, what my argument boils down to is that no steekin' veggie is gonna convince me to switch my bacon sarnie for a nut cutlet!

[Daria]

I... just... your arguement...

*runs into a wall, repeatedly*

There. Much more constructive



No one is trying to make you be vegetarian. Personally, and I think I have already pointed this out above, I don't believe that everyone should be vegetarian. It just doesn't suit some. However, farming practices are the things that need to be changed as intensive farming, huge swathes of monoculture, and the amount of wasted food aren't exactly helping anyone but the supermarkets.

Lastly- obviously we're omnivores for a reason: we evolved from hunter gatherers. We walk upright, we have canines and molars, we only have one stomach, we have opposable thumbs... the list goes on. However, as was also previously discussed, dairy consumption is completely and utterly un-natural. Humans don't eat or wear things because it is natural or un-natural for them to do so: humans are a bunch of self-absorbed idiots. Just ask the conservationists who are desperately trying to stop shark fishing (for fins. JUST the fins. I mean seriously) or Australians whose land is being constantly erroded by sheep (their feet are the wrong shape), or farm workers in Africa whose families die because they use the same bottles for pesticide spraying on cotton farms as they do to cart water and food about in.

What I'm trying to say is that it's moot to say "it's natural" or "it's un-natural". We crossed that line hundreds of years ago. What we should be thinking of now is the hundreds of years in the future, and how our lives impact those of future generations- food consumption (and growth of raw materials for fabric) is a HUGE factor in that and should be taken more seriously by more people than it currently is.
It doesn't have to be in extremes.


/me steps off soapbox

[elphaba2]

Don't worry, love! Converting you to vegetarianism is not one of the 15 things I am interested in doing today!

My point summarizes like this: I don't have a problem with people eating meat. I have a problem with the way that people eat meat today. For the large part, it's unhealthy (*) and it's definitely not sustainable. But that's not the meat's fault! It is Society's and suchlike.

*I'm talking meat with every meal, large quantities of fatty meat every day, etc--meat as part and parcel of an unhealthy diet full of soda and butter and crap. Also consider all the ladies who think that they can't eat meat because they are too ladylike and instead eat air and cigarettes and Melba toasts and then become crazy, anemic and dead.

**Plus, coffee grows in shade! It is perfect for growing in places where other stuff can't grow. + Neolithic Revolution Part Two would totally help out the thousands of farmers screwed over daily by big coffee companies. Ain't no way I'm supporting a back-to-the-planet grow-what-you-eat-type Revolution if I can't have a café to match my beret.

(black, is the answer)

[Radaga]

Animal protein is essential for the development of infant´s brains. So, even for veggan daddies, some meat should be provided for their offspring, for the sake of keeping them growing well.

[Phyllis]

Animal protein is essential for the development of infant´s brains. So, even for veggan daddies, some meat should be provided for their offspring, for the sake of keeping them growing well.

According to? The American Dietetic Association says that a vegetarian diet is just fine for infants and kids as long as it is well planned and not too restrictive.